Speaker: Welcome back to the Flex Diet Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Mike Nelson. On this podcast, we talk about all things too. Increase muscle, increase performance, improve body composition, do all of it within a flexible framework without destroying your health. Today on the podcast, we have my good buddy, Ari Whitten.
We’re talking all about red light therapy. So red light has been around for a while, but especially in the last maybe a year or so, has really become a lot more popular. There is tons of red light devices everywhere now, and Ari is one of the people who wrote the original Ultimate Guide to Red Light Therapy, and he recently did a great update on it and I was actually privileged to see a copy of it and.
Write some nice little words about it, uh, before it was released, and it’s really good. It’s actually really, really [00:01:00] well done on an area that is pretty complicated and not quite as straightforward as what everyone makes it out to be. So I think he did a really great job with that. Uh, Dr. Hamlin also helped with it.
If you’ve ever pulled up any research from the old PubMed on. Uh, red light therapy, photobiomodulation, anything in that area. You’ll see Dr. Hamlin’s published a ton of stuff in that area. So Ari’s a leading expert in energy optimization, fatigue, and human performance. He’s a creator of the Energy Blueprint System, science Space Program to help people increase energy, improve mitochondrial function, and reduce chronic fatigue.
He’s also, as I mentioned, the bestselling author of The Ultimate Guide to Red Light Therapy. And one of the most comprehensive resources available on photo bio modulation. What I really liked about the book too is that he has all of the references and everything there. So he [00:02:00] spent over two decades studying the science of fatigue, metabolism performance, particular focus on mitochondrial health as the foundation of human.
Energy and I think you’ll enjoy this podcast. Like I said, I’ll have a link to the book. I don’t make any money off of the book. Uh, you can pick it up at a lot of other great bookstores and it is really nice. One step, uh, shopping on a very complex topic. So we talk all about red light therapy, what it’s good for, injury, mitochondria performance, and all of that above.
So check out all the great stuff Ari’s done. I’ve been a guest on his podcast a few times too, so make sure to check out his awesome podcast, all the great stuff that he does there. And here we’ve got the Fiz Flex Cert opening again on April 20th, 2026, depending on when you listen to this. So as of this, about [00:03:00] one week away.
Uh, so hop onto the newsletter is gonna be your best information for all of Fiz Flex stuff related. So the Fiz Flex Cert, which is short for physiologic flexibility, uh, composed of four main pillars. Um, and these are all designed to increase overall resilience, um, energy and ability to recover and just generally make you much harder to kill.
So number one is temperature. It’s everything from cold water emergent on one end to sauna on the other end. Pillar number two is temperature pH changes everything from how to do some breathing techniques to make your body temporarily more basic to high intensity Interval training to temporary lower pH three is expanded fuels from lactate to ketones.
And then four is just breathing. So regulation of CO2 and O2. And if you get better in each one of these areas, it’s my [00:04:00] biased opinion and there’s, we’ve got a ton of references to back this up in the certification that you’ll just be overall more robust, anti-fragile, harder to kill. So again, this is an assumption that you’re already getting a B on the basics, which are gonna be.
Nutrition, exercise, and sleep. So if one more information on that, hop onto the free newsletter down below. We’ll send you a cool free gift. Uh, also, and without further ado, please listen to this podcast, my good buddy Ari Whitten, all about red light therapy.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Welcome back to Flex Diet Podcast. How are you today, Ari?
Ari Whitten: I’m great. How are you, Mike? Great to see you again.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Good.
Yes. Very nice to see you again. And uh, life is good. Getting lots of sunshine and surfing in, I hope.
Ari Whitten: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I just got back from a month in Costa Rica, so
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh,
Ari Whitten: lots of sunshine and surfing.
Dr Mike T Nelson: [00:05:00] Beautiful. Where in Costa Rica?
Ari Whitten: Uh, in nos.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, okay. Beautiful area.
Ari Whitten: Yeah, it’s a good spot. Surfing was good that, that we, we lived there for four years, so it’s kind of like a second home for us.
We have a lot of friends there and always nice to be there.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Nice. Got some good waves.
Ari Whitten: Most definitely. Actually it was, uh, unusually small. Uh, for normally it’s like pretty much it’s solid surf almost every day. And this was the, probably the smallest I’ve ever seen it for the month of December.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Okay.
Smallest in terms of frequency or just wave size?
Ari Whitten: Wave size.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, okay. What are they typically?
Ari Whitten: Uh, I would say like 90% of the time it’s, it’s around head high or bigger. Oh,
Dr Mike T Nelson: okay.
Ari Whitten: Uh, on, on the set waves. And this was like, every day was just, wa waist high. And if you, if you got something bigger than that, it was like something to celebrate.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I imagine it’s like kit boarding when you start out. Like, I mean even now, like if I’m in waves over my head I get a little freaked out. But like anything else, you get used to it and [00:06:00] then, now I’m like looking for the bigger wind days where initially it just scared every looking crap outta me.
Ari Whitten: AB absolutely. Yeah. And surfing. Surfing is a scary thing. It takes time to get adjusted to big waves and then, and there’s always a, a threshold, you know, so you get adjusted to waves that are head high or a few feet overhead and, okay, I’m comfortable here. But then if it gets much bigger than that, you go back into to panic and terror mode pretty quickly.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh yeah. Yeah. For people who have no experience, that even the smaller ish waves, let’s say head height and below, it is crazy if you’re in the wrong spot at the wrong time. Like how much power there is there. It’s very. Deceptive if people have never been in those before.
Ari Whitten: Yeah. And the, the ocean is a very humbling place.
It makes you realize how small you are. If you’re out there on a, on a big day with strong rip rip currents and strong wind and your leash breaks and you’ve gotta swim back to the beach and, you know, you’ve had experiences where just making it back to the beach is. [00:07:00] Takes half an hour and is incredibly difficult to just find your way back to shore because the currents are so strong you develop a lot of respect for the ocean pretty quickly.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and anyone who plays in any of those environments in any form, it’s. Even when you do all the best, you do the safety checks, you check all your equipment you do all the best protocols. Like just, it’s a lot of numbers. Like the longer you do it, like something, air quotes, bad’s just gonna happen.
Yeah. It, it’s just, you know, and are you prepared to handle it at that point and, and get out of it safely?
Ari Whitten: Totally.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. And while we’re talking about sunlight, I know you’ve got a new book out on, uh, red Light now. I thought as a. Jumping off point, you can tell me if this makes sense to you or is just a load of bunk.
What I’ve noticed by using red light now for God, probably six years, I’d have to go back. It might even be longer than that. Um, I feel like I get more of a benefit from it in the winter and months where I don’t get much direct [00:08:00] sunlight. Like when we go down to South Pad and do kite boarding and things like that.
I don’t bother with red light. I don’t worry much about it. I don’t. Noticed too much of a downturn. I don’t know. ’cause I know you’ve been in Costa Rica. You’ve, you live in San Diego and you’ve written a whole book on, uh, red Light, which we’ll talk about. Any thoughts on that in comparison to red light, sunlight and just, uh, what might be going on?
Or maybe they’re completely different and there’s no correlation?
Ari Whitten: Yeah, it’s a great question. It’s actually something I wrote about quite a bit in the book. Mm-hmm. However, it is largely in the territory of speculative, logical speculation.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. There’s not much on it that I could find, at least on my end.
Ari Whitten: There’s almost nothing on it if not actually nothing. Um, so you have to just kind of understand things from first principles. And break it down from there. And this, this might be an interesting way to just get into this whole topic for sure. Um, so from first principles, like what is red light well, or red and near infrared light, you know, people and, and this thing that we call photo biomodulation, [00:09:00] a lot of people think of it as just like a random thing, like a random technology that emits these special.
Wavelengths that have these special effects, and it’s sort of detached from a broader context. But the broader context is the evolutionary context. The broader context is why human biology or mammalian biology evolved to respond to these wavelengths. Why are these wavelengths even bioactive? Why and how do they interact with ourselves?
There is an evolutionary frame to this whole discussion, and the primary source of that light that we have evolved for millions of years for a biology to respond to is sunlight. Okay. And, um, we have, uh, maybe I’ll step back for a moment. Just the bigger picture context is the frame that to understand that light photons of light are bioactive, are affecting ourselves.
’cause we don’t normally think [00:10:00] of light this way. We don’t normally think of light as being an important player in human biology. We think of like food as interacting with our biochemistry in our ourselves, but not necessarily light. Um, we have now. M most people are aware of obviously the vitamin D story, and that’s tied to the sun.
And so we know that UV wavelengths are bioactive in our skin and create this reaction that leads to vitamin D, and that affects immune health and musculoskeletal health and all that. Um, and then we know the circadian rhythm story. So we know that blue wavelengths of light enter our eyes, feed back into our circadian clock in our brain and our matic nucleus, and then affect all these metabolic and hormonal processes that.
Touch almost basically everything in our body in one way or another. Um, and then there is on this other part of the electromagnetic spectrum, red and near infrared light, generally 600 to 900 ish nanometers. [00:11:00] That affects our biology in a totally different way. And what’s really interesting about it is there is this thing called, I would encourage people to do a Google image search of the optical window.
In photobiomodulation or the therapeutic window, and what this describes is the interaction between wavelengths of light and what tissue components in our physiology, they are absorbed or not absorbed by and with MO most wavelengths of light, they are either absorbed very rapidly by melanin in the skin or by water.
Okay, and our cells are filled with lots of water. And what that means is if wavelengths have, uh, lots of absorption, a very high degree of absorption of either melanin or water, those wavelengths when they shine on our skin, will rapidly be absorbed at the very superficial level of the skin, at the skin surface, or just beneath it.[00:12:00]
The optical window describes how there is this band of wavelengths that isn’t well absorbed by melanin or water, and that therefore our tissue is essentially much more transparent to this wave, these wavelengths, this band of wavelengths, roughly 600 to 900 nanometers, in other words, penetrates much better through the skin to the deeper layers of our tissue.
It doesn’t stop at the skin surface, it goes. Into our bodies to a significant degree. That discussion is actually a whole, very interesting, controversial discussion we can talk about. But like, how deep does it go? Uh, surprisingly simple and surprisingly controversial. But, um, the, the bigger thing is like, well, why did we evolve for our tissue to be so transparent to this particular band of wavelength?
It would be one, [00:13:00] one thing and kind of a, a non-question, if it was determined that that band of wavelengths was just inert wasn’t doing anything, it was just sort of passing through us randomly, but not doing anything. But it turns out that it’s doing a lot, that it directly interacts with ourselves, that it’s absorbed by certain components in our cells and triggers, uh, cascades.
Of molecular, of biochemical, of gene expression, changes that affect the way our cells function, that stimulate in particular, that stimulate, um, growth factor cascades that are involved in cellular repair and regeneration. So, big picture is human biology evolved to be transparent to and to capture. This particular band of wavelengths of light and the reason that it evolved, and some people, by the way, there’s papers where they’ve speculated that human hairlessness actually, like the reason we’re not [00:14:00] furry animals, in other words, is, uh, is, is actually in part, at least in part or maybe the main reason is that we, desi we are, we’re trying to capture more of this free energy from the sun and do something with it.
Um, so. This is just a really interesting way to reframe our whole understanding of light and how it’s bioactive, and the fact that it’s light from the sun is doing things to our biology to make our cells function better. Now, once we understand all of that context of first principles, now we can come back to your question of like, well, I feel like I notice more benefits from red and near infrared light.
During periods of, of the time when I’m not getting lots of sun exposure. Well, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Right? Because the sun would be providing some of these same benefits. The sun is somewhere depending on where you are and how cloudy it is and so on. [00:15:00] Um, what latitude you’re at, maybe 20 or 30% of that sun’s energy, uh, is in the red and near infrared part of the spectrum.
And so that light is unquestionably providing some of these same photo biomodulation effects that we get from these red and near infrared, uh, uh, technologies. Again, however, there are basically zero studies that have compared photo biomodulation from the sun versus photo biomodulation from a red and your infrared light therapy device.
But the context that you’re presenting where what you’ve noticed subjectively, and I totally agree with it, and that’s what I do myself. Uh, makes a lot of logical sense.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Do we get more red exposure in those sort of wavelengths in the morning and evening because of the angle of the sun? Or is it just because we can’t really Near infrared, you can’t really necessarily see either, so it’s hard to determine is there any point of the day where if you’re outside [00:16:00] you get more of the kind of the red spectrums.
Ari Whitten: So there’s like, there’s two layers to this question. It’s like
Dr Mike T Nelson: mm-hmm.
Ari Whitten: Is there a red shift of the spectrum of sunlight versus are, uh, uh, um, in terms of like the absolute amount of light intensity present at certain wavelengths? Is there more red and your infrared present and here’s what I mean?
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, it’s almost, yeah, it’s almost like the.
The faster cardio debate, oh, well I burn a higher percentage of fat when I do this thing, but like, oh wait, but I didn’t burn hardly anything for calories.
Ari Whitten: Yeah, it, it’s, it’s something, something like that. So like in the morning and evening there’s a red shift there’s less blue light, there’s less UV light present.
You can visually see the sun, especially at like sunset. It’s more reddish than it is in the middle of the day. And that has to do with the wavelengths that are being absorbed by the earth’s atmosphere in relationship to where the sun is in the sky. [00:17:00] Um, so, uh, that’s one aspect. Yes, there is a red shift.
Is there an absolute amount more red light coming through at those times? I haven’t seen like actual data, but I would logically, I would imagine the answer is a clear no.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Ari Whitten: Um, that in the middle of the day, even though the sun may appear less red, you are still getting massive amounts of red and near infrared.
And probably almost certainly the amount, the total amount of light dose in those wavelengths in, in what’s called measured in JUULs. Um, and I use the word dose kind of loosely here. Um. Uh, it would be much greater in the middle of the day.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, because I think a lot of times when people hear red light, they’re like, oh, I watched the sun go up and go down each day.
So therefore. I must be getting my red light exposure at the same time. But it’s, it’s not, you’re not really talking about the same thing. Like you said, you, you see the [00:18:00] color red and so we infer that, oh, that must be the red light he’s talking about, but not quite the same thing.
Ari Whitten: That’s right. Yeah. And the sun has lots of red in near infra red light no matter what time of day it is.
Um. The context where this kind of logic, uh, might be certainly is more appropriate is in the context of circadian rhythm and the light spectrum entering the eyes and how that, that’s
Dr Mike T Nelson: my next question.
Ari Whitten: Yeah. And how, how that affects biological rhythms.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Do we think using a red light panel, so sort of artificial red, near infrared, do we think that has some circadian rhythm effect?
So one of my little, I guess, pet hypotheses is that. I would bet that it does, but I can’t find any real research on that. But I haven’t looked at that particular question for quite some time now.
Ari Whitten: Um, generally it’s regarded that red and near infrared light sort of don’t affect the circadian rhythm.
That’s like this, the band, right, that, that doesn’t, that’s sort of least likely [00:19:00] to impact on circadian rhythm. It’s essentially kind of the opposite of the blue light effect. So blue light is the signal for daytime that signals your, your super charismatic nucleus. It’s the time for to be awake, active, alert, and energetic, and switches on kind of all that daytime biology.
Um, and the, the red shift in the evening and the absence of blue light is. Also a signal for the biology to go, oh, it’s, it’s, we’re winding into sunset and nighttime. It’s the time to go into nighttime biology. Now what’s interesting and related to this is there are a number of studies that have shown that red and urine infrared light actually can improve sleep.
And there are also, there are also studies. Uh, and, and that that is not just the absence of Blue light. It’s not just like using a book reading light, right? That’s Red Redshift, or using indoor light additive effect, like [00:20:00] exposing your body to red light therapy actually promotes better sleep. Um, and there is specifically, it’s been shown in some studies, uh, that it in it increases melatonin levels.
Now, uh, so. There’s some people that I’ve seen argue that near infrared light is actually a signal for melatonin to actually be secreted. So it’s like, it’s not just the absence of blue, but the presence of red and near infrared actually promote melatonin secretion. Um, and that makes sense, right?
Because what we would have from an evolutionary perspective is. The absence of blue light as we, as the sun sets, and then the presence of firelight.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
Ari Whitten: Lots of, um, of orange red, near infrared energy entering in our eyes. So it kind of makes sense [00:21:00] from an evolutionary frame that, that firelight entering our eyes in particular may be a critical signal that promotes melatonin, that promotes better sleep.
Um, the other layer to this story. What was I gonna say? Oh, uh, the melatonin story is also really fascinating because what has been discovered fairly recently by, um, um, a well-known melatonin researcher who’s been at it for I think decades. His name is Russell Reer. Um, I think it’s R-E-I-T-E-R is his last name.
Um, I would encourage everybody to read his work because he’s got some fascinating research on. A relatively new discovery of, um, intracellular melatonin. Okay? And this is the discovery that it is not just a story of the pineal gland in the brain secreting melatonin into the bloodstream. It turns out [00:22:00] that almost all the cells of our body produce their own melatonin inside of the cells.
And the mitochondria in particular seem to be producing melatonin for their own benefit, that melatonin is this critically important mitochondrial antioxidant. And they’re promoting it not for release into circulation, but to maintain inside of the cell, uh, cellular environment where melatonin performs a whole bunch of, um, important roles in protecting the cell from oxidative stress and interacting with other, uh, parts of the.
Um, the antioxidant response element, superoxide dismutase, catalase glutathione, and stuff like that. So there’s this interaction between them and melatonin seems to be a critical part of this story, and this is all kind of new emerging science. What’s really interesting is that it’s been shown that red and near infrared light wavelengths in particular, directly increase this intracellular [00:23:00] melatonin.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Interesting. So those, that red light may also have maybe an antioxidant effect, maybe not directly, but sort of indirectly then.
Ari Whitten: Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Super interesting. Um, yeah, it always fascinates me on physiology, how. Nothing is ever wasted, per se. Everything is almost as efficient as possible. And that there, it makes complete sense that if you would go through the time and effort to make a molecule like melatonin, that it may serve multiple, redundant things in different areas and sub things.
And then my brain goes to like, you know, each cell has its own molecular clock and maybe there’s something going on there with backup systems and who knows.
Ari Whitten: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I, I think. More broadly, like my impression is that a lot of people think we are, we, we have all this knowledge of, you know, every aspect of physiology down to the molecular, down to the genetic [00:24:00] level.
And we understand all these mechanisms in depth. But I really think that our actual understanding, if we were to fast forward in time 50 or a hundred years, yeah, we would look back on this period of time and say, you know, we’re still. Maybe in our infancy or adolescence, maybe the total understanding of all aspects of physiology.
Maybe we’re at 10, 15, 20%, somewhere in that range.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, I mean we’re still discovering new mykines are secreted from muscle. Like these are brand new messengers that, you know, 10, 20 years ago were like, I don’t know, like back up far enough in time. You’re like even fat cells. You’re like, ah, just a fat depot.
They sit on their fat butts, they do nothing all day. And
Ari Whitten: exactly.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Now you could argue that they’re either one of the most. Endocrine, the active, you know, organ systems in the body. So,
Ari Whitten: yeah. This makes me think of that famous, I’m trying to remember who it involved. Maybe you’ll know the, there was a famous story from like the early 19 hundreds of someone going to a patent office
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Story or
Ari Whitten: [00:25:00] someone from, from a patent office declaring that everything that can possibly be invented has already been invented.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yep.
Ari Whitten: Right. And I think if we apply that same principle to human physiology. Just realize like just in the last five years, you know, you and I are both paying a lot of attention to new discoveries and just, you know, let’s, let’s say an exercise physiology, like the things you’re just mentioning with myokines and that’s going on in every field.
Oh yeah. And just in the last five years there’s so many new discoveries, and all we have to do is really just fast forward 50 or a hundred years and realize all these new discoveries are gonna keep happening. It’s not that we figured it all out. We’ve got it all, and the new discoveries are about to stop.
It’s, they’re gonna keep happening. We’re gonna know a whole lot more in, in the coming decades.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I always love the Tim Noakes quote of, he is like, all right, all the stuff I’m gonna teach you now, 50% of it will probably be proven wrong. Yeah. He’s like, I just don’t know what 50% right now.
Ari Whitten: Exactly. Yeah.
Exactly.
Dr Mike T Nelson: So if we’re. [00:26:00] Wandering around, do we have to be buck naked during the day to get red light? I’ve heard that some of these frequencies they’ve shown can, you know, be absorbed through clothing and, and things like that. So it’s not necessarily as simple as the UV story where you generally need, um, skin exposure for it.
Ari Whitten: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. Um. My answer to that, to the point of what we’re just discussing, my answer to that as of six months ago, would’ve been that clothing generally blocks red and near infrared light.
Dr Mike T Nelson: That was
Ari Whitten: my
Dr Mike T Nelson: thought too. But I know you’re up to date on some of the, the new work in that field.
Ari Whitten: Yeah. There, there’s a new study, particularly by a guy named, uh, Dr. Glenn Jeffrey.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Mm-hmm.
Ari Whitten: Where they showed that near infrared light, not so much red light, but near infrared light, um. Actually does seem to penetrate through simple clothing. You know, if you have a lot of clothing on it probably won’t. Yeah.
But if you have like just a simple t-shirt on, for example, uh, probably a lot of that near infrared [00:27:00] energy can actually penetrate through that, that t-shirt and still deliver some, some benefits.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. Which I think is reassuring because for a lot of people it’s, I’m very light skinned, like to be outside, I generally have to be a little bit more.
Covered up, but that I’m getting some of the other benefits, from it at the same time that I’m not getting benefits. So if you do have to cover up, there’s still benefits to going outside, being exposed, you know, to these different frequencies. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Awesome. Um. What about eye exposure? So I know there’s been a big debate with, especially with the, we’ll say the artificial panels, and I know that the, this’ll be a sub discussion, but the panels have generally become more and more powerful over time, and that more powerful red light isn’t necessarily the best thing, but it seems to be there’s some.
Data [00:28:00] that small amounts of red light maybe near infrared might be beneficial for the eyes themselves, but maybe we wanna limit it. And maybe some of the panels now are getting to the point where we might be generating a little bit too much power and then that might be a negative. So again, rarely is it ever a simple story of, oh, this is always good, or this is always bad.
Ari Whitten: Yeah, there, there’s a lot in your question. Um,
Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah, that’s a
Ari Whitten: lot. There, there there are two, if not three studies that have come out just in the last couple years on eye health specifically that are really fascinating studies where they’ve shown and that, that have actually made mainstream news. I would encourage people to just Google them, um, right now and you can bring up like
health.
And it’ll, it’ll show it up. It’ll show that. And one of them used like a torch. Not both of them used like a torch style, which is like a flashlight style mm-hmm. Device directly applied to [00:29:00] the eyes. Um, and what they showed is significant benefits in vision and measures of eye health. Um.
Let me see if I can bring up one of these studies. ’cause I don’t remember the details off the top of my head. I’m
Dr Mike T Nelson: trying to think, was it Glen Jeffrey’s lab that did them? I think, I think
Ari Whitten: it, uh, it’s possible. I don’t, I don’t remember associating.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah,
Ari Whitten: I might be wrong on that, but it’s possible. Um, let’s see.
One second here.
Dr Mike T Nelson: That’s all right. We’re looking it up to get you the most accurate, updated info.
Ari Whitten: Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson: And I always think it’s the uk ’cause they say Torch, which is actually a flashlight.
Ari Whitten: Oh, okay. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, that’s, it’s possible. Uh, the first one was actually 2021, so that was Oh, wow. The, the first one that came out and they showed.
Morning exposure to, to red light improves declining eyesight, uh, in older people. And there, there’s been a couple follow up, uh, uh, studies on this that have also shown similar [00:30:00] benefits. And, um, this red light has also been shown in the context of myopia, um, nearsightedness to benefit that condition as well.
Um, so yeah, there’s a lot of really interesting research there now. Uh, the point that you made after that, which is, panels and the intensity and maybe overdoing the dose. That’s actually a really important point for a number of different contexts. Uh, the, just because one particular study showed a benefit.
Using a particular device does not mean that other devices used at different intensities or different dosages or different wavelengths would also immediately be expected to translate into the same benefit. Um, one of the biggest problems in the industry as a whole right now is that there is this general marketing practice associated with companies that make LED panels, that where this sort [00:31:00] of the implicit assumption.
Is that the more powerful the, the device is, the better it is, the more effective it is. And that is true in certain contexts. Uh, generally speaking up to a point, it stops being true after a certain point where the, the intensity gets so high that it actually causes tissue heating and can damage the tissues from heating the tissues.
Because one of the byproducts of this. Photochemical reaction is heat, um, when, when the irradiance or the light intensity is excessive. So that’s a whole other question. We could talk about the details of what is excessive versus not excessive, but, uh, that also changes depending on what tissue you are talking about.
So, um. It also changes. I’ll add one more layer of complexity here. It also changes depending on what tissue you are targeting in the body. So if you’re targeting a deep tissue beneath the surface, let’s say cartilage in a joint or a tendon, or a muscle or a bone or [00:32:00] something like that, uh, you actually need a fairly powerful device.
You need to apply it for a significant length of time, generally at close distance to the surface of the skin, if not pressed up against the skin to deliver a meaningful amount of light and a high enough light intensity to that deep tissue because light is rapidly attenuated as soon as it enters the tissue, so the intensity of light at the surface.
Is much, much higher. I should say it in reverse. The intensity of light at depths beneath the surface are much lower than whatever is at the surface. So you need a powerful enough light to account for that light attenuation as it travels through tissue to still have at a certain depth, to still have enough light intensity to deliver an effective dose of light that actually creates a response a physiological response at that depth of tissue.
Um. So, uh, another layer to this [00:33:00] story is the amount of the optimal irradiance and dosing parameters that I want for facial skin, anti-aging. Is very different from what I want from if I’m treating an injured knee joint or an ankle sprain or a tendon or a bone or something like that. Um, I want a much lower irradiance and a much lower total dose if my goal is to treat a superficial issue, especially at the level of facial skin, which that skin tends to be more photo sensitive.
So, uh, if, if I put specific. Excuse me if I put, uh, specific numbers to this. Um, the, I radiant, ugh. Excuse me.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, no worries.
Ari Whitten: Okay, let’s see if that fixed it. Good coffee
Dr Mike T Nelson: fixes everything.
Ari Whitten: So if I put specific numbers to it, it’s like 10 to 50, roughly milliwatts per square centimeter. Um, it, which is the i [00:34:00] radiance range. I want for facial skin, anti-aging effects. Um, in contrast, if I want to treat a deep tissue. I might want a hundred or 150, or if I’m using predominantly near infrared, maybe even higher than that, uh, uh, milliwatts per square centimeter.
So I might want 200, 300, 400% higher irradiance to treat that deep tissue than I do for treating facial skin. So this is where and then in the context of facial skin, this same principle applies to the eyes as well. Um. If I’m operating under the assumption that, uh, more power, higher irradiance is more powerful, is better, well then I might be actually overdoing the irradiance, overdoing the dose, and creating a counterproductive effect in those tissues.
So this is where just under understanding the right types of devices and the right types of dosing [00:35:00] for specific tissues becomes more important.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, I know there’s a lot in that question because it, if you look at the research, like you said, there’s kind of this biphasic response where, you know, again, depending on what tissue you’re looking at, what is your purpose?
What are you trying to do? And in some cases you do need more power. Like if you have a little handheld light, eh, it’s probably not gonna do squat. But if you’re right next to a panel and it’s these big powerful panels, you can also kind of overdo it. And I, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think even from, um.
Systemic standpoint, you can have an increase in like regen active, or I’m sorry, Ross, reactive oxygen species and some other things. If you get a little bit too squirrely with it, which I made that mistake in the past, I probably went a little bit too hard too soon and my HRV kind of went down and I felt a little bit just like me, like just off. Yeah. And my training performance dropped, and then I started pulling more of the research and I’m like, oh, I probably way overdid it to start.
Ari Whitten: Yeah. Look [00:36:00] the principle is. As a generalization applied to pretty much everything.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. It is like exercise.
Ari Whitten: Yeah. You, you can overdo anything. Like exercise is awesome for you.
You can overdo exercise to the point where you cause tissue damage and you feel like garbage. Yeah. Or you cause stress fractures and, or, or kidney failure or whatever.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Ari Whitten: Injuries. Um, you, you can drink, you can take the same principle applies to sunlight. Of course you can take it to the point of sunburn and DNA damage.
Um, the same principle applies to drinking water.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.
Ari Whitten: Um, you know, if you drink two gallons of water in the next 15 minutes, you can cause permanent brain damage and put yourself in a coma. So, yes, like things, everything has this principle of you can do an, a high enough intensity and a high enough dose at some point that it will cause harm.
Um, having said that, red and urine infrared light are actually extremely safe. The one exception to that rule is lasers, high powered lasers, you can harm yourself pretty easily if you use those in the wrong way. Um. And in, in [00:37:00] general, the worst you might feel is like what you described. Like maybe you just feel like, um, uh, maybe you have a headache, maybe you feel a little more fatigued or something like that.
If you really overdo the dose. Most people won’t notice anything in that regard, even if they massively overdo the dose. That’s how safe it is. The exception to that is genetically for. Reasons that nobody really knows. There seems to be people who are more and less responsive to this type of light. Some people are hyper responders, some people are non-responders, and if you’re particularly sensitive to this, you might.
Be more likely to, uh, experience a negative effect if you overdo it. And where it’s most noticeable is people who are very ill. Like if you have a chronic illness of some kind, it’s really like the same people who would, if you ran ’em through a 20 minute workout, would yeah be hurting very badly. The next day would be, sore [00:38:00] and super fatigued.
And having headache can feel like garbage for a day or two. Those are the same people that would also be sensitive to red and near infrared light.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. What are some, and I know this is a very loaded, difficult question to answer, but for, I’ll phrase it in two parts. So. Any simple kind of heuristics of, you know, hey, I’ve got a moderate size, two panel, it’s got red, it’s got near infrared, and I wanna do, I’ve heard this is great for mitochondrial benefits or some aerobic benefits.
Any sort of general recommendations, um, for that. And the second part of the question would be,
Ari Whitten: uh, just, just clarify that one for me. So the benefits you’re looking at, did you say aerobic? Are you looking at like
Dr Mike T Nelson: exercise performance? Yeah, so the two things I’ve heard is that there is improvements in mitochondrial health since mitochondria are all the appearing to be the rage now, and one, if that is true.
Is there any [00:39:00] heuristic on kind of what panel size? How far away? Like let’s say I’ve got like a moderate two panel size, I’m gonna be in front of it, half my body exposed, you know, six to 12 inches away. Is there any sort of. Numbers to kind of wrap your head around, which I know is a incredibly loaded question, but that’s the thing that I.
I think at the end of the day, people are always trying to figure out like, I want to use it for X benefit. Is it five minutes? Do I need these huge panels? Do I have to sleep on the damn thing? Like,
Ari Whitten: yeah,
Dr Mike T Nelson: what’s, what’s kind of the most useful? Which again,
Ari Whitten: okay. There, there’s not a simple question. Again, there’s a, there’s a lot in your question and there are also some implicit assumptions in the way you phrased your question that I need to maybe correct a little bit.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Please do.
Ari Whitten: Um. So, uh, the, the broader question is I, there’s this huge landscape of, you know, there’s over 6,000 studies on this topic and [00:40:00] there are all kinds of potential benefits from using it. You could be used for hair loss, it could be used for facial skin, anti-aging, bone healing, exercise performance, weight loss, body composition, um.
Treating side effects like oral mucositis from chemotherapy drugs, uh, treating diabetic ulcers, skin wounds, blah, blah, blah, right? A million different potential consequences. Uh, um, um, context, excuse me, um, of why you might wanna use this therapy. Um, in each one, there are principles of how to deliver light effectively to accomplish that objective.
And that means in many cases, that different types of devices are better suited for specific purposes than others. And one of the, the principles that needs correction and that I contributed to in my original book from 2018 is kind of the assumption that panels are this kind of Swiss army knife that they can do [00:41:00] everything and accomplish all the different potential benefits.
Um, I no longer think that. What I now believe is that body parts, specific devices as a generalization body parts specific devices are better suited than panels for most specific body part goals. So, as an example, um, if I, my goal is facial skin anti-aging, I would probably want to prioritize a device like this.
Um, much more than a panel. Um, and there are even nuances to a device like this. Most of them are junk and a few of them are like a
Dr Mike T Nelson: handheld mask type device you would put place
Ari Whitten: over you, a you a mask, you strap onto your face. Um, if my goal is, uh, combating hair loss, then I wanna uh, laser cap a helmet that actually conforms to my head and presses right up against my scalp so I can deliver light effectively between the hair shafts.
If my goal is. Treating a deep tissue in a certain [00:42:00] spot, knee injury, ankle injury, treating a, a, a muscle or tendon issue, um, I probably want something more like this, a very high powered device that I can apply directly on that area, maybe pressing right into that body part rather than six or 12 inches away.
Um, that is another nuance to it, the distance away from the device. Uh, impacts how the light penetrates. So this is a principle in physics and optics going back for, to the 18 hundreds called Fresnos equations, where basically the angle of incidents of light to that surface influences how much of that light either penetrates or, uh, is reflected off the surface.
There’s also enhanced optics of penetration by pressing the device. The principle is basically the closer you are to the surface. Uh, and the more perpendicular the light is to that body surface, the, um, the more light will penetrate. So, for example, for facial skin, [00:43:00] anti-aging, my face is not flat, right? I have a whole bunch of curves on my face.
And I’ve got sides of my face, and I’ve got sides of my nose and these different curvatures. If I use a flat panel that is only shining light at this angle on my face, well, and the center of my forehead, I’m good to go. The, the bridge of my nose, I’m good to go. You know these other parts of my face that are facing that great, but the sides of my face, the sides of my eyes.
W the angle of light is not very good for actually penetrating and being absorbed by that tissue. Now you can potentially solve that by like turning to the side. Yeah. Rotating it there and turning to this side.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Rotisserie chicken.
Ari Whitten: Yeah, exactly. Or you do it by using a device that conforms to the curvatures of that body part.
Um, so anyway, that, that’s. There’s a lot more to that story, but that’s sort of the, the, the, the context of how to think through the kinds of questions you’re asking.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, [00:44:00] no, that’s great because what I’ve done generally is use the two panel. One I have for general, I guess you could say, overall health, maybe a little bit of muscle, maybe some mitochondrial benefits, and then if it’s any injury specific, I’ve got a much.
Smaller panel, it’s a little bit higher power. It’s actually the guy who designed that, took the lenses and made ’em. I always get this loose. Convex, right? So they stick up a little bit further. So exactly what you were saying, when you push it in the tissue, you’re getting more directly into that tissue itself.
So I tend to use that one more for like local muscular type things I’ve got going on.
Ari Whitten: Yeah. That. So, yes. And there’s even more technical aspects to the device. For example, the spacing between LEDs. Mm. So yeah, the con, the convex lenses might press into the skin better.
Dr Mike T Nelson: I’m getting.
Ari Whitten: But if there’s big spaces, which there probably are in the device you’re describing big spaces between each one, each one will kind of act in the tissue as [00:45:00] like its own spotlight.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Sure.
Ari Whitten: Where there is very, like, think of, um, a, like if you’re watching a play, uh. Spotlights behind you shining on the actor. Okay. Well, a spotlight can act on its own, but if you have two or three pointing at the same spot, that light converges and amplifies the intensity. And if you want greater depth of penetration into the tissue.
The more of that light convergence effect, the better and the more effective the light will penetrate into that tissue and deliver an effective dose to deep tissue. So, um, yeah there’s lots of aspects to this DDD uh, device design equation. But like, um, just to show you an example, this device here is designed to have uniform light coverage.
So there are no hot spots, no cold spots, no. Um, spaces between each individual light source and how that light affects the skin and that overlap of the light, [00:46:00] um, that uniformity of the light coverage greatly enhances the, the light penetration to the tissue. Um,
Dr Mike T Nelson: and what’s the name of that device
Ari Whitten: for?
People listen in devices like this, like face masks. The reason most of the ones on the market are junk is because they have like. One fifth of the amount of LEDs that this one has that I’m showing, they have big spaces between each LED. And what that does is it creates like a hot spot effect where you have light on this spot,
Dr Mike T Nelson: oh,
Ari Whitten: sure enough next to it.
And then you have a half an inch or an inch space with no light. And then you have another spot with light here and another spot with light here. But what this one does is it has uniform light coverage over the entire face. So every spot on your face is covered with the same light intensity.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome.
And do you mind mentioning the names of those two products?
Ari Whitten: This one is from a company called Lumara.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Okay. For the face mask,
Ari Whitten: it’s not the only one on the market that is a quality [00:47:00] device. And there are a few others that are similar in this kind of LED density and have the right irradiance. Um, and I talk about ’em in my book.
Uh, this one is from a company called SunPower, LED.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Okay. That’s the handheld one.
Ari Whitten: Yeah. And, uh, this is, this is a very powerful device with some really interesting engineering elec. The guy who owns the company is an electrical engineer that I’ve Oh, nice. Had on my podcast. Um, and he designs this in a way to maximize that, that effect that I was describing there.
Dr Mike T Nelson: And if I was to use that directly over, say a muscle, how, what is for that particular device? Like what, is there a general kind of length of time?
Ari Whitten: Yeah, it’s the optimal dosing is determined by number one, what tissue are you trying to affect, superficial versus deep? Uh, and. Number two, what is the, the, a radiance of the device?
So this particular one, [00:48:00] like the face mask I was just showing you, I think it’s around 20 milliwatts per square centimeter. Mm-hmm. Which is great for the face. The other one I showed you is about 150, if I remember correctly. Mm-hmm. Might be like one 70 some, somewhere in there.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Somewhere in there.
Ari Whitten: Um, which is quite powerful and yeah.
Yeah. Uh, that. Type of device can deliver an effective dose very rapidly, even to deep tissue. So roughly three minutes, five minutes-ish. Okay. Yeah. On a particular spot.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Very cool.
Ari Whitten: Yeah.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. And I know you’ve got a brand new book out. Uh, tell us all about it, where people can get it. And I, you were kind enough for me to send me an early version of it and it’s really good.
Like I, I’ve tried to pull some of the research on this topic over the years and. You did an awesome job of explaining it all the different areas, because as you know better than I do, it’s not as simple as, Ooh, red light, good. Just do this, buy this, put it over here for this amount of time. Like even the studies themselves are sometimes [00:49:00] contradictory, like not all of it agrees.
And then at the end of the day, people wanna know, well, what do I do? So I thought you did a really good job of all the different case studies, the uses, explaining the principles of what’s actually going on. So people can know what to do and have an idea of how to kind of think their way through it at the same time.
Ari Whitten: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I appreciate that. It’s, it’s for sale right now. Just came out on January 13th. Uh, it’s called The Ultimate Guide to Red Light Therapy, um, it’s version 2.0. So I wrote the original version of this book in 2018. Uh, when this topic was still very fringe and nobody had heard it. Yeah.
And I had been learning about it for like six or seven years at that point, maybe starting back in like 2010 or 11. Um, backstory is I was actually creating some of the first LED panels that ever existed. As far as I know by reaching out to a marijuana growing light company and having them make custom red and your infrared panels, they didn’t [00:50:00] even know why they were making them.
And then I was, I was, I was, uh, referring them tens of thousands of dollars of business. And after like a year of this, the owner of the company was like, why are you having so many people buy these weird devices from us? And, uh, he’s since gone on to make a very successful multimillion dollar red and near infrared light company af after me telling him what this technology is.
Um, and, uh, so my book, the timing was very good. I just sort of like had this idea that like, I felt like this is important, nobody’s talking about it. Mm-hmm. And nobody’s written a book on it. So I published this book, threw it together in a few months and it’s like, oh, you know, may, maybe it’ll do something.
And it went on to become the most popular book in the world on this subject and, uh, has remained so for the last. Whatever, six years. Uh, and so last year, penguin Random House reached out to me and basically said, Hey, would you [00:51:00] like to do version 2.0 of this book with us? I said, yes, of course. Happy to have one of the biggest publishers in the world instead of for sure publishing.
And the other cool thing that happened is. Um, I was doing consults with a couple of the top experts in the world on the subject, scientists and clinicians to basically make sure that I wasn’t getting anything wrong, that I wasn’t gonna put anything in the book that was. Inaccurate. And one of the guys I was working with was Dr.
Michael Hamlin, who is the author, the most prolific scientist in the world on the subject, the author of the actual clinical textbooks. Oh
Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah.
Ari Whitten: Uh, if I can show you, this is the, yeah. Photo medicine. Photo medicine. Um, and he’s a former Harvard professor, now retired and been involved in over 1400. Uh, research papers on the subject for decades.
The, he’s the guy, like
Dr Mike T Nelson: if you look up anything in red light area at all, photo biomodulation, his name’s on like tons of stuff.
Ari Whitten: Yes. So in the process of working with him, uh, we [00:52:00] developed a nice relationship and he actually offered to be my co-author on the book.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, awesome.
Ari Whitten: So not only did he edit all my work, but he authored a few sections of his own.
And I now have the most prolific scientist in the world on the subject as my co-author for this new book. So it’s been a pretty cool journey.
Dr Mike T Nelson: That’s awesome and people can get it on Amazon now, I assume is probably the best place to find it.
Ari Whitten: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and I would highly recommend it. Did job with it.
I always have a huge respect for people who are taking on very complex topics and trying to make them useful, but also accurate because that is an absolute hercule task, especially with something like just red light therapy photobiomodulation. It is very confusing and I thought it, it turned out, uh, really good.
So I would highly recommend everybody check it out for sure.
Ari Whitten: Thank you so much. I completely agree with you. Herculean is, is the wrong word for that
Dr Mike T Nelson: task. I would not wanna write that. I would not wanna do that book. Hell no.
Ari Whitten: Yeah, it was very complicated. But I think, you know, [00:53:00] at the end of the day, what I’ve created is a set of very simple heuristics of how to navigate this kind of, all the junk, all the pseudoscience, all the marketing gimmicks, and all the nonsense.
And how to see the actual evidence-based principles of how this technology works and what are the principles of how to use it and what devices to select and what, how to get the dosing right for each individual potential goal that you may be seeking. So I think that I’ve done that pretty well. Um, and I hope people get a lot of value from the book.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. I would say anyone using red light therapy just go buy the book. Like, trust me, you’ll save yourself hours and hours of headache and it’s definitely well done. So,
Ari Whitten: yeah. And potentially thousands of dollars too.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh yeah. You’ll save yourself a ton of money by not buying crap.
Ari Whitten: Yeah, exactly.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. Well thank you so much. I really appreciate it. That was
Ari Whitten: great. Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for having me on, Mike. I really appreciate it.
Dr Mike T Nelson: Thank you.
Speaker 2: [00:54:00] Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Huge thanks. Sorry for coming on the podcast and sharing all the great information about Red Light therapy. Uh, and again, red Light therapy is something I have used most days when I’m at home. Um, going back, man, I think it’s almost seven or eight years now, so quite a while.
And again, I, I do think it is, uh, useful as I talk about here in the podcast. Um, again, it all depends on like we discussed what you’re trying to do, what is gonna be, uh, best for you and your particular, um, case. So if you have any questions, uh, feel free to contact me. Uh, also make sure to pick up RA’s book.
Uh, really, really great job, uh, with it, again, taking a very complex, uh, topic that actually has a ton of, uh, research on it. I compared a little PowerPoint presentation I did for another group about a year and a half ago on that. So that took me [00:55:00] forever just to do that particular thing. So I can only imagine how long it takes to put a book like this together so you can get all that information over at, uh, Amazon or any other bookstore or sellers you can find it at, and no affiliate links or anything on that.
So make sure to check that out. Uh, really, really well done. Check out all all of other Ari’s. Great stuff. And maybe you’ll run into him surfing at some point. Uh, if you want more information from me, go down to hop on the newsletter for free. And we’ve got the Physiologic Flexibility certification opening, uh, April 20th, 2026.
It’ll only be open for one week, only opens twice a year. If you want more information on that, hop onto the newsletter’s. Gonna be the best place. We’ve got a bunch of info rolling out this week and next week. Along with some cool bonus items and everything else. If you have any questions on that, uh, feel free to contact me.
The physiologic flexibility certification is for people trying to [00:56:00] be more robust, anti-fragile, just generally much harder to kill. Everything from temperature changes, from cold water immersion, to sauna, to pH changes, to expanded fuels, lactate, and ketones. Even regulation of O2 and CO2 via breathing. So more information on that, uh, hit me up or hop onto the newsletter.
Thank you so much as always for listening. Really, really appreciate it. Tons of great stuff, um, coming out here on the podcast. As always, if you can help us out with the old algorithms by hitting the download, subscribe, like leaving any and all comments and reviews, it was a really long way to helping us out.
So thank you so much for listening. Greatly appreciate it. Talk to all of you next week.
A great little actress. Yep. And getting smaller all the time.
Speaker 3: This podcast is for informational purposes only. The podcast is not intended as a [00:57:00] substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. You should not use the information on the podcast for diagnosing or treating a health problem or disease, or prescribing any medication or other treatment.
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This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest [00:58:00] in products or services referred to therein. If you think you have a medical problem, consult a licensed physician.
