Episode 135: *REBROADCAST* The Ph.D. Process, RPR, and Cutting Edge Psychology: an interview with Precision Nutrition’s Former Head Strength and Sport Psychology coach Dr Adam Feit

This episode of the Flex Diet Podcast is a rebroadcast of an interview with Dr. Adam Feit. He and I talk about the Ph.D. process, as well as a variety of topics including DOMS, the nervous system, RPR, and others.

Episode Notes

• Discussion of the Ph.D. process

• Research limitations and struggles
• Reflexive Performance Reset (RPR)
• The imperfect role of science in answering questions
• Sport and exercise psychology (Dr. Feit’s dissertation)
• The role of the coach in directing their client’s mindset
• One surprise from Dr. Feit’s research
• Find Dr. Feit on Facebook: Adam Feit, IG: @aefeit, Twitter: aefeit, and email: aefeit@gmail.com

Download the transcript

Full text below

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Hey, what’s going on? Welcome to the flex diet podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Mike T. Nelson, back once again this week. And today, you might wonder my my voice sounds a little different, a little more quiet. I’m out here in Sun Valley, Idaho, and nobody else is up yet. So I’m recording this from the porch outside and it’s right now it’s 16 degrees Fahrenheit. So it’s a little chilly, did a couple rounds of some Wim Hof breathing and meditation beforehand here. So today I’ve got it’s a rebroadcast of a podcast I did from December 14, originally of 2020.

I know we’ve got a lot of new listeners here, which is awesome, really appreciate that. This was one that I just thought was a fun conversation that some of you may not have listened to yet. So this is with my buddy, Dr. Adam fight. He was formerly with precision nutrition, he’s kind of moved on now. But he worked with them for many years. And we’re talking about more of the psychology angle. Again, we do get into some physiology, of course, talking about strength training, RPR, which is reflexive performance research, or reflexive performance reset. I’ve got research on my brain here. And just some of the stuff that Adam found from doing his PhD dissertation.

And as always, this is brought to you buy the flex diet cert. But today, it’s brought to you by the physiologic flexibility cert. So if you wonder why I’m doing weird crap, like exposing myself to cold, that is one of the hormetic stressors that we cover in the phys flex certification. So we target for homeostatic stressors, things your body has to hold constant. And this is once you’ve done well with the basics of nutrition, and exercise and recovery, what is the next level to be more robust, anti fragile, harder to kill, maybe even potentially pushing you towards post traumatic growth after a big stressor? That’s the physiologic flexibility certification, go to physiologic flexibility.com for all the information and to get on the waitlist. But when you’re listening to this, it will open again April of 2022. So enjoy this rebroadcast of an older podcast. My buddy, Dr. Adam light. What’s going on? Is Dr. Mike T. Nelson here on the Lux diet Podcast. I’m here with now Dr. Adam fight. How are you sir?

Dr. Adam Feit

Pretty awesome.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Dr. Nelson, like the movie, Doctor, Doctor, Doctor.

Dr. Adam Feit

Definitely surreal. I think this, this might be my second podcast or just discussion with somebody other than my wife and kids that since defending so still trying it on, see how it feels, you know, but I’m gonna use it as much as I can until somebody like you tells me all right, that’s enough.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

We all understand. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, I remember going through the process that guy worked with at the time. He’s like, Oh, so when you graduate? Does everyone call your doctor? And I’m like, No, most people I know. Just don’t give a shit. We’re just totally fine. You know? Yeah.

Dr. Adam Feit

My wife. She actually, not not many people, I guess some depending on what circles you’re in. But my wife and I decided to go back at the same time for a PhD. Yes, right. Teaching. And I did mine in sports Psych. And so she actually got done a little bit earlier than me in April. And I was like, you know, Alright, tell me about it. You know? She’s like, nothing like it’s not like living with your boyfriend and then you get married. Oh, no, it’ll, it’ll be completely different when I graduate. And yeah, yeah, sure enough, I woke up actually, I defended in the afternoon. And it was like, okay, laundry still got to get done. dinner’s gonna be on the table, and my daughter’s got dance. So see you guys later.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, I think it’s different maybe when you’re a little bit older, because I remember, I was so nervous for my defense. Because, you know, you’re just like, I put all this time and effort into it. And you know, hopefully they want to set you up to fail. Normally, you’ll kind of feel out of the process before you get to that they just don’t let you do it. And I had been shot down a whole bunch of times before I got to my defense. So I was hoping that I was gonna make it and you know, had a couple of people there. And afterwards, we just, everyone’s like, God, you go out and have some rage or have a party or whatever. I’m like, No, it was like 11 in the morning, we got done and walked across the street of the UVM campus went to Buffalo Wild Wings. I had a beer and my wife drove me home and we chilled out at night and I went to bed. You know, it was just more just a sense of relief more than anything else of like, Oh, thank god that’s over.

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah. If I will say that I mean, just in terms of stress. I mean, you talk about this all the time, but when it comes from any dimension or domain, like, your body’s really not going to recognize it, it’s just like overload. So I think, yeah, I got done in the afternoon, I think we ordered a pizza, we watch a movie on Netflix. And I was like, yeah, that night, because, like you said, I am curious to know your process. But for us, that’s Springfield College, we had to take a written comp exam at the end of our second year for six hours. Then after that, we had to take a research exam comps for six hours, and then we had orals for content for two hours. And that’s all to be just a candidate, and then, you know, apply for your dissertation, whatnot. And so that was another two hour defense after the whole paper. So you know, all in all, it was like 16 hours of just getting drilled by the firing squad accordingly.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, this switched ours we had just to, so to be officially be a PhD candidate, after you’ve applied and everything. It used to be where you had to take, like, some heinous like, all day exam, or whatever. And I was super nervous about it. But I’m like, okay, at least on this day, you know, June 1 of this year, it’ll be done, you know, and I’m like, I’ve just so looking forward to that. And literally, like, right before I go in there, like, oh, yeah, you know, we switched it to a take home exam. I’m like, What do you mean, the take home exam? It’s like, well, we’ve got four people on your committee, including your advisor. So they each get to submit a question, they’ll each grade the question, and you have 30 days to do it.

At face value, the most people when you describe that, you’re like, oh, that doesn’t sound as bad. I’m like, No, it’s so bad, because you’re literally expected to write like a mini dissertation within 30 days. And I didn’t know this, because they had changed it right before. So idiot, me didn’t plan 30 days after of like, my schedule of like everything else. So I remember traveling with my wife to visit her family, I still had to work, I still had everything going on. And it was just was so bad. And, you know, I think a lot of times, I just like to dig within the process. So I get the grades back. And it was basically like you get one appeal. So I didn’t pass the first time, and to the people pass me to the people didn’t. So then I had to go in and take their comments in rework them submitted again, one last time. And if they said it wasn’t good enough, then you’re you just literally like flushed out of the whole program, which when I took it was three and a half years into the program. Yeah. You know, because people forget, you’ve invested like many years of your life already by that point.

Dr. Adam Feit

So yeah, the I think that’s they actually changed it towards the end of my last year. So now they have you do the content stuff after year one, to effectively. I mean, you don’t want to say it, but it’s to weed them out. Yeah, exactly. Totally. You have to like, like us, yeah, you put in two, three years of work. And then it was the same thing, you could fail it once at an exam once you couldn’t retake it until the following year. So it sets you back automatically. And I had some colleagues do that. But if you fail it twice, you know, Hey, see you later. Bye, bye. And that happened to a few people in my wife’s program in the teaching administration program. And just, you know, for us, it was a lot of the statistics, because, you know, when we were teaching college and depending, we took a lot more research classes, and probably some other programs that aren’t heavily involved. And that’s, that’s a curveball for a lot of us, including myself.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

I had to suffer through a whole year of biostatistics. And this is after I transferred it and had a minor in mathematics and stuff. But for engineering, you don’t. I mean, you don’t take a lot of statistics. I mean, you do the standard manufacturing type stuff. But you know, when you’re doing biological systems that’s like its own branch of statistics. And I was so excited after I finally that was like one of my last classes that I had to complete. And I think I was more excited about completing the classwork almost than I was about passing the exams. Just because I was not a good test taker. And you know, like, for most people listening, like you have to get at least a B or above average, or you lose funding, you get kicked out of the program. So you can’t just kind of slack off so I remember passing that class going. Thank God, this is the last academic class I ever have to take for a grade and that was that was a good feeling.

Dr. Adam Feit

That’s it. That was a great feeling. I think for us we had to do outside of dissertation credits. I think our program had 74 credits of classwork. Oh, that’s a lot. Yeah. Or maybe it was 76. But I know the dissertation itself was like about 14 to 16 credits. And so yeah, I mean, I was taking 912 semester hours like three four classes like I was an undergrad again, yeah. Full time, decision nutrition, volunteering at the college for my internship hours, you know, for sports, Psych and you know, trying to be a halfway decent dad and husband. So, yeah, when, when the pandemic hit, unfortunately, there was I guess a little bit of a relief of like, okay, I don’t have to continue to commute to campus like, I can do this from zoom, like I’m familiar with it, etc. So in some ways, there were definitely more silver linings, I think in my lifestyle and my academic coursework than others, because it allowed me to kind of anchor down and really finished strong accordingly.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

And I’m assuming you probably had your data collection, I would assume, done by that point, correct.

Dr. Adam Feit

Whoo, I wish I did.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Because I know a lot of people study as they just got blown up. Like I knew some people in grad school, though they were in their fourth year of a Ph. D. program. We’re just finishing data collection. And I mean, it’s like, what do you do? You know, I know, people that had studies that they had spent, you know, three years working on four years working on and can’t finish data collection. You know, you’re just like, Oh, my God.

Dr. Adam Feit

We’re still there. Yeah, guy, I went to school with the same thing. He had gone to proposal, like ready to go. So this was the beginning of second semester last year. And I actually got to proposal a couple days before our spring break, and then we ended up shutting down after spring break. Oh, I got him right at the nick of time. Yeah. Because I was doing as far as doing interviews remotely through zoom, I was able to kind of get through IRB with no problems. But yeah, we had a bunch of master’s students, you know, my wife’s, the Associate Director of Strength Conditioning, and we still got grad students that want, you know, need to collect data, and they’re doing awesome things, you know, the fasting on strength and power and, you know, trying to take blood and whatnot. And they’re like, Yeah, we can’t do that yet. So I think that’s gonna be a struggle, I think, you know, I feel there’s any students out there like I feel for you. And I, hopefully this gets sorted out sooner than later.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, I just think we’ll look back probably two to five years from now. And if you look at just research across many disciplines, I think you’re gonna see this little divot and a drop and a little asterix of just all the stuff that just kind of got hosed in the process.

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, I will say, I mean, I had to put that as a limitation, right? You know, what will holding me back was like, Hey, I did this during a pan a worldwide pandemic. And maybe some of the answers that I got from the participants weren’t truly reflective, because they hadn’t coached in a couple weeks, but don’t hold that against me. You know, let’s, let’s get this thing published someday, and we’re gonna be alright. So,

Dr. Mike T Nelson

yeah, and that’s the hard part. Even as a reviewer and stuff too, it’s like you, I always give sort of the benefit of doubt to the person doing the study, unless there’s just a methodological error that’s clear as day where you’re just like, the whole thing’s aft?

Dr. Adam Feit

You know, you’re not, you’re not reviewer three, that’s what you’re telling me? Yeah. Yeah. Because you’re human.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, I’ve been on the other end of the spectrum on that too. And, and it’s hard because like, everybody wants, quote, unquote, perfect data collection, and, and everything. But it’s also the reality of it, you’re collecting data in the real world, if you’re doing some external validation type study, and it’s not going to be perfect, it’s going to be kind of messy, you’re going to do the best you can with, you know, the number of people you have, and the power and the statistics and all that kind of stuff. But it drives me insane when more armchair online critics are, like, pointing to flaws in the study. And I’m like, Did you email the researcher, I can almost guarantee that they probably thought of that, you know, because I just said, an energy drinks. And we ended up using ride to fatigue as one of our markers.

And they’re like, Oh, why didn’t you do a time trial, this doesn’t relate to sports performance. And I’m like, You know what, I actually had it written that way. I changed it because we could only get recreational level athletes. So if I get someone who’s like really good on the bike, who rides a lot, and someone who rides twice a week, and I show that there’s a learning effect now in the order of the trial that’s done. And I don’t do enough familiarization trials, etc. The whole study is screwed, you know, and then you’re relying on volunteers. So I probably got too familiar is familiarization trials, plus the three times they’re coming into the labs, and now that’s five times they have to come into the lab, you know, for free and get poked and prodded and tube stuff in their mouth and all that kind of stuff, too. So it’s, yeah, there’s always gonna be limits to do one thing. You can’t do the other thing that?

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, well, I love how you bring it up. And it’s interesting, we’re taking the angle that we are but just kind of, you know, what chaps me as a coach, right as a practitioner is, once I started to learn it was, and I seen those critics, right? We see the trolls online, like get the emails and watch your Facebook posts. And it’s like, the higher control that we have in the study, the less applicability, it is going to be in the real world, right? We’re naturally balancing our internal and external validity. So I laugh like I hysterically, sit back and sit in my chair and look at these posts on Facebook and Instagram and whatnot.

And people are been throwing arms up of like, thinking, how is that going to be appropriate? And it’s like, you have no idea because again, they’re not in that process of the compromise. You have to make and largely a party. You know, some of it isn’t really your choice. It’s your committee. And it’s like, they’ve got stuff to do. And they want to make sure you graduate. And so, you know, there’s obviously some ethical concerns there with research like anything else. But yeah, you want a completely buttoned up like, white, labeled perfect study gold standard, it’s going to come at a sacrifice, but obviously, it depends on on what you’re trying to look at. Right?

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah. And even some of the people like years ago, and Kevin Hall was doing some studies in a metabolic chamber. People are like, Oh, my God, how does he dare do that? That that’s not real world. No one does that no one has all their food perfectly calibrated in this unlike? Exactly. Like, do you have a metabolic chamber? Like you’re gonna run a study that costs, you know, a couple million dollars, and it’s not set up for external validity? It’s trying to figure out what is the underlying mechanism of some of these things. And we are purposely trying to hold everything, you know, as tight as the nets asked to try to figure that out. We’re not trying to do this, to tell you Okay, with the real world online coaching, here’s what you should do. You know, so then it just kind of goes back to what is the mechanism? What are you trying to show by the study, and, you know, takes a collection of studies, both internal and external validation. And that’s the consensus all the time. So anyway, yeah.

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, we’re just like, airing out our grievances. Yeah. academic process and bridging the gap between right theory and application. We’re gonna face battles everywhere we go. So do the best we can with what we have. Right?

Dr. Mike T Nelson

I feel like it’s when you watch Seinfeld, December 23. That’s like the the airing of grievances for the holiday celebration they had with the steel pole and the feats of strength for Festivus. For the rest of us, yeah. So sad. Like I bring up Seinfeld references now and students are like, What are you talking about? I’m like, what?

Dr. Adam Feit

That was Seinfeld I bring up Anchorman is I mean that you talk about more modern. I was in San Diego coaching at the Olympic training center this summer, it came out. And I was, you know, I was turning 21. I’m like this. This is glorious, right? Like, every other coaching cue is a one liner from the movie. Yeah. So I bring up you know, little things like that. And they’re like, no, never seen it. And I’m like, wow, like you are doing humanity and coaching a disservice right now.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

I did the RPR level research and Cal Dietz had one of his interns there. And so she was super nice girl. But the the two presenters were just giving her a hard time because you sometimes forget, like how young people are who are entering, coaching and even students. So the running joke the whole weekend was like all these old classic movies. We’re just quizzing her the whole time if she had seen him or not. So we’re making her like top 12 list of movies, she had to go back and watch.

Dr. Adam Feit

Let that stand for the record young coaches and scientists, somebody like that in your corner. Because there are a lot of valuable life lessons that these shows and movies can show you about life. So yeah, glad you’re able to be there for her with you and Cal. So that’s great that you did the level three, I was actually just on the phone with JL this past weekend. Nice catching up. So we just got, yeah, we got our grad students at Springfield hooked up with RPR level one, and got got a couple continuing ed programs in line for the winter break. So we’re excited to, you know, kind of bring that more towards the forefront and get, you know, younger coaches better, so to speak.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

And you did the level one if I remember correctly.

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, I actually, I don’t even know what it would be called right now. I remember because Cal had come out when I was running the gym in New Jersey ripped.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

And it was like it was super early ones. I think it was.

Dr. Adam Feit

So I technically have, you’d have to clarify this for me. But technically my my certificate is like level two as well. Yeah. Can you did you like that? All the drivers? I mean, we went through everything. Yeah. And it was a hands on. So I do have level two before it was like level two.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Nice. Yeah. And if you have calici instructor, it’s I went to the early ones, because I learned through Douglas Hill through be activated, which RPR got a license to teach his stuff. And I remember sitting in one of the first ones that Cal taught publicly in the Twin Cities. And it was about, like two in the afternoon. He was only doing level one that day. He was supposed to do level two the next day. And he’s just, you know, ripping through stuff. And he’s like, showing everyone how to do all this stuff. And I was like, oh, yeah, great. It’s like two in the afternoon.

He’s like, alright, well, I think that’s it for level one, any questions? And I look around and everyone is just like, like deer in the headlights of a Peterbilt. They have like, no idea what just happened. So I’m raising my hand and ask a bunch of questions and then people felt like it was okay to actually ask questions that they didn’t really understand. You know, some stuff and and I love Kyle. He’s awesome, but he’s done it like so much like if you sometimes don’t interrupt him with a question, then it’s just like, everyone’s got it. Cool. All right, next thing Oh, you gotta see this next thing is super cool.

Dr. Adam Feit

I remember that we had about maybe 40 or 50 people at our place when he came out. And the same thing came out for the weekend. And it was awesome. We had the gym, you know, we were partnering with the physical therapy clinic as well. So we brought out like 810 tables, and you know, we’re all doing the stuff on each other trying to figure it out. And but like, exactly like you said, right, it becomes almost a second language where you’re just assuming, you know, you don’t realize how much you know, because you’re probably in a different room. And now you’re in this room, and you’re like, Whoa, hold on, we have to slow things down a bit. So it’s been great to see how everything has changed. And it really evolved into you know, especially with the online stuff, and working through that. And you know, what the colors and the vision work? And I’m excited to dive deep, a little bit more into it as things evolve accordingly.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, it’s one of those things, obviously, I’m biased because I teach for our PR, and even back to the science thing, people are like, well, what’s the exact science of it? I’m like, I don’t know. I mean, I can tell you some stuff. I think that’s going on, there’s like been two or three studies, it’s ever really been done on it. But again, you hate to say that, in my experience or anecdotal only, like, I’ve tested a lot of other systems. And I don’t know, man, it just, it just seems to work. And I’ve translated that even to online stuff. And I don’t even tell people what it is like, yeah, just do these drills. I know, it looks batshit. Crazy. I know it looks insane. And like, generally, the feedback is very similar each time. So it’s, yeah, I think that’s always hard. When you’re like yourself, you’re obviously doing a lot of work in science, and we’ll talk about your dissertation coming up.

But then you work in the real world also. It’s like, at the end of the day, if a client comes in, they don’t care how many studies there is on something, I hope that I know some of the background of it if they ask and I can get him a better result. But if 17 studies say this thing should work, and it does or doesn’t, all they care about is the n equals one result by the time they walk out the door. You know, so I think that’s always the even the debate online too. And it’s like, how can you kind of bridge those two together? Where like, the research kind of gives you the general direction? And then the me search gives you the specific answer on an individual N equals one, level two.

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, well, and I know we talked a lot about it at precision nutrition. But I think we’ve all fallen as a victim or the victor, however we want to look at but the trap of like evidence bet evidence base, right? So is it evidence led? Is it evidence based? But like what, what truly is evidence base? Is it simply waiting for that white paper Research Journal? That is, you know, by the time it gets to all the reviewing, and it’s finally out there, it’s probably a little bit outdated? Is it a combination of the the coaches, intuition and their personal experiences, as well as what’s, what the client feels what they’re going through, as well. So, you know, it’s, it’s important to consider all of that in the process.

Because if we look at all of that research, if we look at all of the things that powerlifters were doing, and bodybuilders are doing for years, and years and years, yeah, they probably couldn’t explain it. But we can’t deny that what they were doing lbs outside the effects of other performance enhancing substances, or methods were working. And so why continue to fight and make a big deal about it? Why don’t we work and collaborate? And let’s validate those methods and help them get the recognition they deserve? I think that’s super important to explore.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, especially if your goal is to get stronger than it makes sense to look at what a power lifters and Olympic weightlifters do. If you want to preserve as much muscle mass as possible and get leaner, drugs aside, maybe looking at what bodybuilders do at least the the consensus, that’s probably gonna give you some pretty good clues to start there. And of course, you always have to be aware of you know, what is the cost to do that, but as a starting point, it’s probably going to give you some pretty good data to look at.

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, and I, you know, you know, this, but just, it’s never about proving something is working, because we can’t do that in research. But going through that process, and I’ve struggled with this just being a coach over the years of like, trying to find the best way or the holy grail of like, you know, yeah, I’m gonna get this certification or RPR is that ticket, right? It’s, but how can we clear the waters right? You know, if the, if the water itself is pretty muddy? Well, we can probably rule out this technique, or we can probably rule out that protocol that’s just as important if not more important, than trying to validate all the things that are working because this this industry itself is completely saturated with fluency matters and protocols and challenges and it drives a lot of us nuts. I know for a fact so.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, yeah, I’ve been my one of my favorite quotes is from Dr. Pat Davidson, is that, you know, the scientific process is just like knocking down bowling pins. It’s like we’re never really proving anything. We’re just like, Okay, this theory, okay, we kind of disprove that doesn’t appear to be true. Oh, this one? Yeah. Okay, we’re able to disprove this and at the end of the day, you’re alive. with, you know, these 2345 theories and, yeah, that might be true. I mean, we haven’t been able to disprove them so far to date doesn’t mean that we won’t.

But if you’re not trained in that thought process to which, you know, took many years to beat into my thick skull, and it’s hard to explain that to clients, because everybody else in the quote unquote, real world is like, well, what do I do? Like what is true? Like, what is the correct thing? You know, what is the optimal thing to do? It’s drives me batshit crazy. It’s like, no, let’s just work on something better. Yeah, I don’t think that’s the best route, we’ve got some pretty good data to show that that’s probably not the thing. But let’s go over here and it kind of go in that direction. You know, and maybe we don’t have as much solid data on that, but hasn’t really been disproven yet. So it’s probably going to get us closer, a little bit better.

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, I love how you bring up the idea of theories because I remember having a discussion with my advisor and you know, in sports psychology, right, that the software science you’re basing your work on a theoretical framework, right, so what is the lens that you’re you’re looking at this and how you’re going to answer the research questions. And I just remember going through that whole proposal process and watching other people and it was like, Oh, yours is based in self determination theory or yours is but you know, mine was based on self efficacy theory or yours is based on that theory and that theory, and I remember reading a paper and talking about it being like we’re I think we’re spending so much time trying to stay in the lane of all the theories that were established.

Like, why aren’t we trying to either disprove it or maybe create a new one and lend some evidence towards something else right like I remember we just hired a uh, we but at the college hired a new exercise physiology and in neuro Professor young guy did some postdoc work at Harvard like really sharp guy and you know, we’re talking through some of the advanced ex fist stuff and I remember when it just had come out I think was last year but how they’re talking about like Dom’s. How maybe it’s not the really the muscle fiber it’s more of a neurological issue right and it was like blowing people’s mind and I’m like, this is the stuff that we need to circulate because yeah, the old coaching adage right?

You always do what we’ve always done you’re always gonna get we’ve always gotten and so if we’re not pushing the boundaries and exploring the edges then we’re just going to say Oh, this is based on this theory because some guy from the 1970s at a you know high or middle class school primarily filled with you know, college age resistance training men with you know, certain levels of privilege at work. Yeah, we’re not going to get any better.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

I’ve always wondered too, because if you look at the data, it’s it doesn’t. Everybody thinks that okay, if you have Dom’s that are, you know, delayed onset muscle soreness, performance automatically goes down, like Oh, bro, my quads are really bad. So my performance is just gonna be crap. Yay. If you look at the data, it’s not super clear. Right? At some point if you absolutely completely brutalized and trashed a muscle. Yeah, your force is definitely going to go down but it doesn’t track like this nice one to one relationship.

Then you throw stuff in like you know, markers we use for muscle damage all the time CK creatine kinase. Yeah, they’re associated with Dom’s, but they don’t track perfectly on a one to one linear relationship either. At some level, if you’ve got a shit ton of CK in your blood, you probably have some Dom’s, you’ve definitely damaged some muscle and you probably have impaired force. But in that kind of in between zone. I don’t even know anymore. You said maybe it’s all just a sensitization of the nervous system because you’re going by unless you’re doing a biopsy and looking at, you know, the line stream and stuff like that. You’re going by what they report they’re saying, oh, and vas, visual analog scale, it’s this. So that’s their interpretation of a feeling or a sensation. And that gets even more messy.

Dr. Adam Feit

I’m glad you brought that up. Because looking at from the other end of coaching, mental performance, the perception and the mindset that they bring to that situation is going to give us more information than anything. I remember. When I first started coaching. We were I was working with, you know, Olympians like Toby Stevenson was a silver medalist in the pole vault. This was maybe 2004 But guys like iron waltz and Jared late Jared Rome, I mean power throwers.

And I’m looking at the program and like they are squatting hard and heavy and push pressing hard and heavy, the like within 1216 hours of the meets. Wow. And I’m like and you know, we had I think some block country what was coming out I think it was the bronze medalists in 2004 in the shot, and this guy’s like max effort deadlifting like six 700 pounds for triples doing the same thing day before they meet but I’m asking him like, you come from a traditional coaching model, right?

Like no Dom’s, like write it like 48 hours before the big game, right? And he’s like, I love the like, we love the field time. Like, we love the field compact, stressing the system so much before it like we feel better. And I was like, yeah, they didn’t teach me that. Textbook. So I’m obviously not gonna mess with that I’m just a sloppy intern to be working for you, right? But that whole perception of how does this feel? If, if you’re gonna delay in that and sit in that discomfort of like, Oh, I’m sorry, I can’t do anything. I’m not strong. I mean, you’re just sitting in that defeating attitude. And yeah, you’re gonna perform? Not well.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah. And then I my brain even goes to him like, Well, is there something to like having some inflammation and higher, you know, interstitial fluid and pressure to, you know, change, like dynamic movement that we haven’t looked at? Or some? I have no friggin idea. But who knows?

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, that’s, I think the beauty of it, right? Yeah. Who doesn’t know, if you do know, let us know. Yeah. There’s a place for all of us to try and find out and to just move away from the traditional ideologies of, you know, inflammation, and then icing everything. And yeah, it’s funny, you bring up Pat Davidson, because he had gone to Springfield College as well. Wow, when I was leaving my undergrad, and you know, he’s making his mark in the health and fitness world, but just challenging these concepts that we just were blindly following about how we should train and how we should not train and how we should set up programs. So it’s important to kind of be that, you know, that go that roadway or that rebel way, and start to look at things from a different perspective, because that’s how we are going to advance in this field.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, yeah, totally. And so tell us more about what you looked at for your PhD dissertation. It’s kind of sort of related to these topics a little bit.

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah. Well, I appreciate the opportunity to chat a little bit about it. But I had come from a pretty heavy strength conditioning background, I had, you know, dabbled in a lot of different areas and different levels and whatnot, and had an opportunity to come back get my PhD alongside my wife, as I said earlier, but I took the Sport and Exercise psychology route, because I had was probably still suffering PTSD from my undergrad extra. Now, guys, like you to get my information brought back to the is that the start Frank Starling mechanism?

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah. Cardiac system there.

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah. The chalkboard still, it’s just so in my face about that. But what I was interested in is really evaluating the gap, right? We talked about like tensions, or essentially where we are now and where we could be. And what I saw a lot of was that, let’s say strength conditioning coaching, or physical performance coaching, high performance, performance enhancement, we have so many different names of like, getting people more bigger, faster, stronger, jacked and tan, right? That, are we neglecting a big piece of their development. And so I looked at, I’ll slow it down a little bit. I wanted to know what the use of sports psychology techniques, strategies, skills, essentially mental skills, how are those being used in the field of Strength Conditioning, so I did a two part study, put out a survey, which is awesome. The first part was like 1100 responses, like I was like, Let’s go That was crazy. San taught Yeah, like 10 times the amount that was in current published research. So I found a lot of research from Radcliffe, comfort and cassette, in like the mid 2000s. And I was like, This is great. But I’m like, I’ve got 10 times that amount. And then I get to the process of like cleaning the data, screening the data. And I was like, Oh, my God, like 600, close to 700. So then I brought it down to college coaches, because I spent a lot of time in college, and then at the college, and so I looked at essentially, you know, on a scale of one to seven, one being very infrequently, seven, being very frequently, how often were you using what you know about sports psychology, these skills and strategies on a regular basis? So, you know, we talked about the use of music, but you know, what are you using for arousal regulation? What are you using for concentration strategies? How are you using self confidence, motivation, goal setting, etc. And so I got some really great data from that. But like any research, right, you just can’t stop with that one research question.

And so, while I picked up things like, hey, you know, knowledge obviously is a barrier, we’re only going to coach or only going to write a program for what we feel competent in that that makes sense, right? I remember when, let’s say kettlebells had come out and when I didn’t come out was like popular and mainstream coaching. If I didn’t have any experience with it, I wasn’t coaching it and it was really the same with you know, elements of sports psychology. So we found things like that we found that there were no differences between genders, kind of ran some some basic statistical tests to see where we were at. But I was like, Alright, now that I have the landscape kind of painted, right, we know goal setting, self confidence, and motivational strategies are like the top three used by coaches.

I want to know exactly what you’re doing. Like I want to get in your face. I want to be at your hip. And I want to be able to say, All right, take me through your day. What elements of mental skills are you using? Why are you using them what’s in your way or whatnot. So I did a follow up study, interviewed 16 division one strength conditioning coaches, from I think four out of the five power five schools, I had head coaches, I had football only coaches, I had Olympic only coaches. I had males, females, I had coaches that were coaching less than five years and coaches, I had less had more than 20 years.

So I felt like really good from a sampling strategy of like, I’m really trying to capture as much of collegiate strength conditioning as possible. And so that’s what I did. So I looked at, hey, you know, how, what are you doing? Specifically? What are the barriers and obstacles in your way? You know, why aren’t you doing it the way you thought, right? Because I had I was a little bias, right? And you know, I’m writing my positionality statement. I’m like, hell yeah, sports Psych. self talk and taking some ammonia salts, like, of course, that’s going to performance. And you know, I’m guilty of a little Monday motivational video once in a while.

Those cheesy one liners like, oh, let’s go and let’s get your chili hot and oh, crap. So I wanted to look at that. And I wanted to see like, what did they know about sports psychology? In coaching, you have to get a degree in a related field. So where are we following Kinesiology? Where are we following exercise science? And or do we have some people that had some background in that? So I’ll pause on a little bit, but essentially, I did a deep dive, put together, I think it was 16 inner like 90 minute interviews with coaches, the coding process for anybody that’s still listening and understands the study, right? Oh, man, that was that was a slap in the face, like over and over again, because you think you’ve kind of got like the answer.

And then you go through it again, you’re like, No, that’s not exactly. I mean, I kid you not, I had transcripts 1000s of pages of transcripts, well, maybe not 1016, interviews, 50 page. So hundreds, and I’m quoting them, I’m tagging them, I’m highlighting, I’m making little notes, and then I’m cutting them out. And I’ve got like, set in my living room. And I’m like, trying to, I mean, it was like A Beautiful Mind, like rustle all over the place. Because you’re trying to make your what is the data telling me and showing me. So yeah, I went through that process and was able to get button everything up, you know, by the end of the fall, so. So that’s where I started, I wanted to know, I wanted to do a deep dive, the role of a coach is very influential, you know, they’re doing more than just training, proper strength training and conditioning methods.

They’re providing emotional support, social support, physical support, and if there’s anybody that is going to coach mental skills, that the strength conditioning coach can be an ideal person, because of the strength of that, you know, athlete coach relationship. I mean, you know, this with your, your M three clients, like you, you build great rapport with them, they just you, they’re, they’re probably telling you things that you’re like, Whoa, you know, should this be a counselor or a therapist or whatnot. And so when we look at that, right, we there’s a gigantic stigma against mental health, mental performance, sports psychology. And that’s what I found in the research, right? Some coaches were like, Yeah, I don’t I don’t mess with that. I just went, once they start talking about suicide, I defer out and I’m like, oh, it’s not just that, like, we spent so much time on relative intensities and periodization schemes and advanced, you know, French contrast training sets.

And it’s like, it’s it’s such a big piece here. So I really wanted to figure out like, how are you guys? How is everybody doing it? What do you even know about it? Where are you getting your resources from? And what are some of the things in your way? So I’m looking forward to, hopefully putting it into the the publication journals, I need to need a little bit of a break, as you can imagine. But yeah, so we’re gonna wrap all that up here to get some q&a here. But essentially, sports psychology, how is it those elements and techniques and skills being used as a coach and what can we learn about it in other sectors as well?

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a huge area, especially in the future. For a while I served on the mindset Performance Institute, I was just research helping them with more from the because I got into it backwards. So I started many years ago, first client sat down, and you can imagine that, yeah, male 40 pounds overweight. Look at his food log. Now he’s eating a sleeve of Oreos every day. Cool. Don’t eat Oreos. I’m like, Man, I’m a great coach. This is awesome. Guy you can imagine goes away comes back again, still eating like a whole sleeve of Oreos, right? And this goes on because I’m not very bright for God, almost like two or three months. Eventually, I just got so frustrated. I said, fine. Don’t worry about it. We’re not going to do anything.

And then I went back and started taking more neurobiology classes. So I’m like, well, maybe I should figure out like how to The brain work like I only know basic thing like how does it work? How did you know Association neurons blah, blah, all that stuff. And then I realized I’m like, Oh my God, I’m such an idiot. I’m all I’m telling this poor guy is like Oreos, Oreos, Oreos, it’s like, don’t think of a pink elephant. Like you just thought of the pink elephant. So I’m berating this poor bastard about his Oreos, and he’s just thinking Oreos, but he’s cognitive enough to know that he’s not supposed to have the Oreo. So then he needs them. And then he feels bad on top of it.

And yeah, I had like three clients almost like that. One right after the other. And I remember after, like, literally half a year in the profession, I’m going, Why am I going back to school for exercise physiology. This has nothing to do with physiology. It’s almost all psychology. And, you know, now fast forward 16 years later, I think it’s still does, you know, I think in the future, I’d be curious on your opinion on this. coaches and trainers will have to know sets and reps, you’ll have to know your exercise phys, you’ll have to know your basic nutrition like PN and all those programs, I think are awesome.

But I think that’s going to be the base level, that’s going to be the expectation that you have to have these things down cold. The next level is going to be how do you you know, do things with like psychology? How do you actually get people to do to change their behaviors? How do you get them to stay motivated, whatever that is. And that, to me is like the next level and all the skills that I kind of had to pick up along the way, which I’m sure many other trainers have had to.

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, I mean, I’m obviously biased because I work for precision, nutrition. Exactly. And we’re in that in that space. But that’s, that’s what drove me to get the degree it wasn’t about you know, hating exercise phys necessarily, and, you know, am I gonna remember the rate limiting step of, you know, glycolysis, and all of that, but it was about Okay, great. I’ve had my fair share of struggles. I’m a naturally a bigger guy, I played offensive line. And so getting the meal plans understanding macros, energy and versus energy out, like, as much as we want to deduce it too simple as it’s either this or that. There’s so many other factors at play. And when you coach as long as we do, you get to understand that all right, here, she’s got the plan, but why aren’t they executing it? Right? Or? Yeah, they were all gung ho the first week when I signed up, and they paid me you know, a month in advance, but now it’s happening.

Why are they go see me? Or, you know, how come they’re they’re doing this? Or they’re doing that? So? Yeah, I would say, you’re gonna have to have that base level of competence. But you and I both know, right? Like, your clients aren’t asking you the questions that your your university professors and educators said, you’re going to need to know, right? Like, I still, I still laugh.

When I visit my wife on campus, when classes, we’re still on, you know, sessions, and I’m looking at the lab and, you know, they’re measuring the polls, radio, Paul’s, and they’re doing the blood pressure. And it’s like, I remember 15 years ago, I’m like, Yeah, I’m gonna just use a heart rate monitor. And they’re like, Yeah, that’s not always gonna work, you know? And I’m like, yeah, if it doesn’t, I’m gonna have an extra, I got another one. Right. And now, the metrics and the wearables and all the KPIs we can pull from that is driving how we’re coaching that.

So, you know, like, we just finished a course for piano about, you know, we call it change psychology. But yeah, using these elements of behavior, psychology, and the the bio psychosocial elements of like, here’s why, especially now, right, here’s why your client is gaining weight, and they don’t want to, or here’s why. They’re stressed to the max. And it’s not just about like, Hey, bro, like, let’s do some meditation and drink some bulletproof coffee in the morning. It’s called a day, there are so many things pulling on them. So to answer your question, yeah, I’m 100%.

Behind you, the work is being done. I think, now more than ever, mainstream fitness and health have to publicize that have to share that, instead of the latest, like Instagram giveaway around the holidays about, you know, typing, give me your stats, and I can just put in a fancy calculator and give you your macros. That’s great. But guess what, they’re just gonna sit there. And if you don’t learn how to coach that you’re not going to get any results.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah. And it’s an interesting dichotomy, too, because I just got a testimony from a client who graduated. And she was like, like, wow, you’re much more of a life coach than I ever imagined. You know, which, I didn’t take that as a knock at all. I took that as like, well, that’s a huge compliment. You know, because people come in thinking that it’s all sets and reps and finding the perfect program. And obviously, you have to deliver on on that front.

But I mean, I can’t even think of a single client who’s ever come in and been like, you know, man, I know, you’re going to give me sets and reps, and you’re going to talk to me about nutrition, but, you know, it’s really my psychology that needs help. Like, nobody says that, you know, but almost at the end of the day, that’s kind of their rate limiter, you know, so it’s trying to approach it in a way where it’s like the old analogy of people go to the movies to watch whatever the new movie is, I guess maybe Not so much now. But you dial it up in your TV, whatever.

But back when theaters were in business, but theaters themselves would make more money out of concessions and they would ever on movies. But they wouldn’t advertise, hey, come to the theater and get popcorn. Like, that doesn’t make any sense. But when I go there, it’s like, oh, maybe I’ll get a popcorn, we’ll get something else. Right. So they’re still delivering on what they promised, hey, here’s the new movie. But you know, while you’re here, maybe you should think about this thing over here, too.

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah. Bring up the the whole idea with the movie theater. And I was I was listening to a few of your older podcasts, and you’re talking about the you know, the H is a food right? So yeah, you know, hedonic issues, right, and health and whatnot. But I remember I was presenting in a seminar class, and there actually was a study. And I mean, maybe the lab was debunked. And maybe it was out of the Cornell food lab, they had some ethical issues there. But part of it was like, back to the movie in the popcorn was, yeah, that I need some help my psychology man, you just explained what happens in the environment of a lot of our clients, right?

They’re, they’re eating uncontrollably. They’re not even aware of that. And I remember one of the studies we looked at, was they were, were they going to eat the popcorn, whether it was fresh or stale, and what they found was essentially, the popcorns there, you’re gonna eat it. So I remember, my seminar class, I had made popcorn, and I left it out for like, three days, I brought it in ice bags. And I’m like giving a little PowerPoint and they’re just smashing food.

And then we get to it. And it was like, you’ve all been pumped, like, sitting at the table for four days. Right? But you still ate it. So I think when you bring up that whole, yeah, the psychology piece, why are they making the decisions that they’re making? As a coach, when you hear something like, oh, you know, you’re a life coach. Yeah, we naturally, I think, feel that as like a negative connotation, like, whoa, whoa, I’m not all about that. But let’s move forward, right? 2021 coming up. Now more than ever, people are going to want more than just somebody who can throw me a workout on an Excel spreadsheet, or a training platform. And these are the things that again, it’s change or die. If you don’t adapt with the times, you’re not going to be of any value to anybody, you’re not going to have any services to provide, because they’re going to want more.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, I think this, you know, your basic macros and your training program are just going to become a commodity in and of themselves. Right. And, you know, most of the clients I work with all my clients are awesome, but, you know, there’s usually something that was kind of a rate limiter, or they just can’t pull a program off of the shelf, whether it’s a weird mechanical issue or something going on. And I mean, that’s the time to use the services of a coach, you know, because we all I think, have to admit, we deal with a very biased population to right huge survivorship bias, and people that are seeking you out for a particular thing, who are going to pay you a lot of money.

They are motivated to change, they are motivated, you know, to do those things that may or may not be kind of the general public running around either. You know, something sometimes when we live in the trainer space only, it’s easy to kind of look out and go, Wow, why are people so you know, overweight? Why don’t they do other things, you know, and they’re, like you said, they’re, especially now they’re stressed out, they’ve got a whole bunch of other stuff going on. They’re probably doing okay, with wherever they’re at in their life now. And until something usually drastically changes, it doesn’t really rise up and become a priority either.

Dr. Adam Feit

And I think just calling that out specifically that it’s just natural for us to say, or just tell ourselves, right, that these defeating thoughts and negative self talk of like, but I used to be able to do this, and it’s it’s no excuses. Now I’ve got more time now more than ever, right? Let’s say pandemic times, right? And I’m in this as a coach or in the industry, I should be doing better.

And I’m just gonna do it harder, right? Or I need more willpower, right? And he’s like, all the things that just try harder, bro. Yeah, that’s it, right? Like paleo harder, man. Yo, it’s like an inside joke we have at work like, Oh, it didn’t work. Well, just paleo harder. Yeah, right. It’s not a knock at, you know, the no Elio followers out there. But it’s if something’s not working, you just can’t do it more, Do it harder. It’s you’ve got to develop again back to skill development, right? Everything for the most part, our skills and they can be learned, but are you putting them in the right sequence? Are you putting them at the right place in time of the coaching conversation?

And are they like, are you doing the thing before the thing so all these elements all intertwine and it’s like, you know what, how about we go back to the Seinfeld right we talked about this all time like the opposite right Georgia standard stanza Prince. Yeah, like my favorite principle of Yahweh trying to just like you keep doing all of this and your life sucks. George decides to do the opposite. Yeah, he’s just like, brushing light. So instead of doing it harder, why don’t you do it less hard and be more consistent right? Instead of being so strict and beating yourself up because you were a couple of calories or grams over your macros that weekend you had the mark yourself non compliant.

Why don’t He opened up a little bit of the the freedom there and give yourself a little bit more choices. And, you know, tying all that into he brought up like the idea of the coach. But that’s a basic psychological need is is relatedness, right? So you tie that in with the autonomy for them to choose establishing tasks and exercises and just challenges for them that they’re motivated to accomplish. And they’re competent doing, you’re not you’re not putting them out on a on an island of like, someday you’ll get here, no, yeah, something within their stretch limit capacity. And then you actually have them a part of something greater than themselves, like a team, like a coach, you know, the whole idea of accountability really, is that come down to coaching. Now more than ever, we most of us are craving that. So yeah, go get yourself a coach coaches get coached all the time. Oh, yeah. That’s, that’s a big difference maker for you.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah. Awesome. So as we wrap up your is there something that surprised you from your research? So like, what you thought going in, and then where you ended up? Once you were done? Anything kind of changed your mind or things that were unexpected?

Dr. Adam Feit

That’s a great question, Dr. Mike.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

That’s sounds like might change your mind about stuff over time. So one of my little grading of people, I guess you could say is, do they ever change their mind? Right? And not that you have to be wishy washy and change your mind all the time? But in the face of new data? Are you going to at least consider the data? And go okay, I did consider it. I’m not changing my mind. And here’s why. So I always have big respect for people that can at least be open minded enough to look at and go, maybe I should do this. Oh, there’s some new data now. Okay, I’m gonna go in this direction now instead?

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, no, great question. I’m glad you posed it. So yeah, I actually went into it thinking, the strength and conditioning coach was like the person, you are the person that is the best person to do this, because of the quality of the relationship, you spent so much time with the athletes, everything, the respect of the organization, etc. So I went in being like, I’ve got to prove to me and to my committee that like, no, no, the strength coach like that. They’re the ticket, right? They’re the linchpin, whatever, whatever it is. And as I started going through it, I had to remember that I was also looking at this, more importantly, from the lens of a sports psychology practitioner.

Whether that’s a mental performance coach, a sport and exercise professional, I couldn’t just be like Coach Adam or coach fight the strength coach. And what I found was yes, okay, the coach is an integral part of that piece. However, they don’t have the skills, they don’t have the knowledge for the most part. And while some might have and this came up actually, as a quote, somebody have the ability to perform psychological first aid, they don’t have the resources, the time or the knowledge to essentially, you know, put the tourniquet on. They’re not aware of diagnostic interviewing, right. And so now, as a sport, psychology professional, I’m thinking, okay, instead of trying to put the sports psych people out of a job, because a lot of division one institutions are going to be hiring rather, it’s a sports psychologist and mental performance coach and psychiatrist and, and there’s obviously different scopes that you can work with there.

How about we start bringing them to the same table and saying, Hey, look, I’m a strength coach, I can do some basic first aid here, right, I can work on some arousal regulation methods, I’m working on relaxing and doing RPR and doing breath control, etc. But I really love to take it up a notch. And I’d love to enlist your support. So now as we start getting towards a high performance model, it’s no longer like Joe, the strength coach in the basement of the weight room, and all of the administrators on the sixth or seventh floor. It’s about can we really put together a high performance team?

Can we get the support of the sports psychology professional? Can that individual or team of individuals help our coaching staff because they are the first responders? They are the boots on the ground? They’re doing all these readiness surveys? Well, do they really know when to poke and prod? Or to actually alert and kind of sound the siren off? Right? So in terms of what I would change, I was like gung ho of like, Yeah, we don’t need that. We don’t need an athletic trainer. We don’t need a physio like strength coach doing all right.

You know, that essence of martyrdom and came out, like, look, they’re in a great position to do all that stuff. But they’re overworked. Yeah, they love to learn but they don’t have resources. So guess what, like that’s that’s research study. Number three for me is I want to put together like the strength coaches playbook for sports, Psych, but work with other sport and exercise psychology professionals to say you have a market here now.

So instead of trying to go directly to the athlete, and if it’s a private sector, right, and it’s not gonna buy insurance, you got issues there. How about you start coaching the coaches, because now you’re gonna be able to reach more people just like, you know, let’s, let’s talk RPR Yeah, you’re trying to coaches and then they can go do their own thing. Yeah. So that’s what I learned from it, you know, a little bit more integration with other areas of passion. forbearance and let’s let’s get all the right people at the right table speaking the same language because too many kids fall through the cracks. Too many coaches fall through the cracks. And I think our industry would be a much better if we start opening the doors instead of locking them tight.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, no, I think that’s great. And if any good resources for people who are listening, who would want to start in that area until your next study comes out?

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, well, I guess continue to shameless plug for the fall, I’m trying to build out that schools over trying to build my personal brand is like a strength in sports psychology coach. So I’m trying to do my best and learn from guys like you, Dr. Mike and establishing a little bit of a brand. But there I think some of the seminal research was, you know, by Radcliffe, comfort and for set, a lot of that was in JCR in organizations like the Aspen association of applied sports psychology, and just looking at how coaching behaviors have been affected or do affect psychological factors and vice versa. So I think we are going to see a shift, I think we’re seeing it a little bit more consistent now more than ever, especially with the impact of mental health and performance during COVID-19. So don’t be surprised that, you know, every third or fourth study is in some time trial to fatigue. It’s going to be about communication, it’s going to be about proper coaching behaviors. And it’s going to be about improving all facets of athlete client performance, rather than a bigger bench, bro. So that’s where I’d start now.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

And I think that’s awesome. And because I, I talked to Cal deeds quite a bit, especially when I was there at the University of Minnesota, and I still talked to him a fair amount. But I’m like, trying to coordinate like these hardcore quantitative studies with elite athletes. Good friggin luck, right? Because if I went to Cal, or I went to you and someone who said, Hey, bro, I want to take your elite athletes, at least at a college level, I want them to do this program for 16 weeks, you’re going to be like, say what you want to like, hijack all my athletes and do some batshit crazy program for 16 weeks, just so you can publish a study?

What if your program sucks, then I have to deal with all these athletes on top of coaching on top of everything else, it’s just really not that feasible, because their job is to get performance out. They don’t give a shit. If anything gets published. That’s not their job. However, like qualitative study, maybe take someone like you or someone else, just drop them into the environment with a question. And maybe they observe maybe they do some interviews, maybe they do some other things, where they’re not as intrusive. I think to a lot of the hardcore scientists that makes them bristle a little bit because it’s not the quantitative we compare this and that and their squat speed didn’t go up, whatever.

But I think there’s a lot of stuff we can learn from successful environments that then may set up even other more quantitative studies, too. But I think right now, there just isn’t as much known about that entire process as what we would like to believe either.

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, well, and I mean, you said it earlier, the training is gonna suck. Well, at least half the trainees gotta suck, because you need a control group. Exactly. That’s the other. If I’m gonna give you my damn athletes, you better give them intervention, you know? Yeah, I want them to get better. But yeah, I think it’s important there to look at that. Like, I know you doing some stuff with I think, or you were with Dr. Ben house, right? Yeah. Costa Rica.

Yeah. So like, things like that, like truly applied like, Bro search, like, Let’s get after it. But if you have anybody that’s like reaching out, or maybe, you know, if you’re a coach, so listen to this, like, don’t be afraid of like, Look, you probably doing some great stuff. I’m sure there’s somebody in your department that’s like itching for a paper that that could use the data that you already have, right? Like, I had a meeting with one of our grad students, and he put together an incredible KPI performance tracker drop down. I mean, it’s like, Dude, you need to quit school and sell this, like you will make 1000s maybe hundreds, we’ll see. Right?

But we have so much data, look for the person that understands it, right? And, hey, I’m a coach. I know what it’s like, I can still write programs, I’m still coaching. And I can look at the other aspects of that. So yeah, I can be the the creep in the corner, taking notes, looking at some of the perceptions and attitudes that are happening. But as coaches you got to open up to that. So you know, let your guard down a little bit. If you truly want to be better, and you want to help your athletes be better. Open those opportunities up and collaborate with people that can walk the walk and talk the talk.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, and my last part to the academics, I’d throw myself somewhat in that bucket too is if a study doesn’t have perfect external validation, but it’s never been performed before, unless there’s a huge methodological flaw. just publish it. You know, because I’m doing the study with Ben house and Tommy wood and Ryan. We had people come into Costa Rica, we had him do the same workout four days in a row. And we did velocity measurements and again, watching the study it was far from perfect. There’s no question on that.

However, so far, yeah, the study could be written a little bit better. We’re working on it. But you know, some of the standard journals were just like, Completely uninterested. And I’m like, wait a minute, like, this is a good question, right? Can you do the same thing four days in a row? And what happens? Right? There’s not much data on that. I thought it was a pretty novel question. You know, so I think it has to kind of go both directions, too. And not everything is going to have absolute perfect internal validated data and blood levels and everything else either. Those are great, that’s awesome. But then again, it’s like, are we doing the internal versus external validation on it? So?

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, well, that’s for the researcher to decide. And yeah, you know, we’re all we’re all gonna have our own biases and preferences. But at the end of the day, it’s like, hey, that’s great. But you know, I think James, Heather says like, well, if it’s happens in mice, and I can’t actually take that and do it, or apply it appropriately with my training population, then how much can I really take from it? So yeah, I’m all about at the end of the day, how is this going to help? How is this applicable to what I do on a day to day basis? And if I can’t take it from the, from those research findings, and I’m on to the next one?

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah. And I apologize that you know, Mr. Others, I’m just giving them bad.

Dr. Adam Feit

Oh, actually, I don’t personally, but his name gets thrown in some of the circles I frequent in the in the Twitterverse. So yeah, you know that that’s having an account there. And, yeah, that’s great. But it was found in mice. So saying, we can just roll that over into a human.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, totally agree. Awesome. So where can people find more about you on the old interwebs?

Dr. Adam Feit

So yeah, I’m gonna do a little bit better job hopefully with social but pretty active on Facebook like yourself. So some spots left there to connect. And then I guess Instagram would be a eat excuse me at fights. So at FIT, Twitter, Adam underscore fights, but also my personal email at fight@gmail.com. So I have some open office hours like you Dr. Mike. Your playbook. Yeah. Ever just wants to connect and chat. I I’m like my, my puppy, man. I just love seeing and talking to people now. I really happen a lot too much. So reach out love to talk shop. And if I can do anything, or just connect, I would love to hear from you.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah, and thank you so much. And hopefully we’ll get to maybe hang out again in person. It’s been a while. I think the last time I saw you was in Toronto when I crashed the precision nutrition potluck.

Dr. Adam Feit

Yeah, that was a great time, I think. Yeah, if we make it back up there, we’re gonna be crashing a lot of places and people there. So it’ll be it’ll be good to reconnect and hopefully get that level three someday.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for all your time and sharing all your knowledge. I really appreciate it. And I’m super stoked to see all the great stuff that you have coming out yet to. So thank you for all your contributions.

Dr. Adam Feit

Were just beginning so I appreciate it. Dr. Mike, thank you.

Dr. Mike T Nelson

Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Again. Really appreciate all of the sharing these subscribing, please leave a review. Any questions you want me to answer? Please get a hold of me and I will do my best to answer them. I’m probably going to do another q&a episode coming up.

We had a lot of wonderful interviews lately, which is great. Got a bunch more interviews I’m working on coming up and check out the physiologic flexibility certification go to physiologic flexibility.com and I will have all the information there. As always, the main site for everything is just going to be Mike T Nelson calm. So you can go there anything that gets you on to the newsletter, will also put you into the potential waitlist for the phys flexor when it opens again this coming April.

Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. I’ve got some other work to finish up here. I’m recording this on Sunday. This will probably go out on Monday or Tuesday. And then I’m going to do some snowboarding today here at Sun Valley Idaho.

This podcast is brought to you by the physiologic flexibility certification course. In the course, I talk about the body’s homeostatic regulators and how you can train them. The benefit is enhanced recovery and greater robustness. We cover breathing techniques, CWI, sauna, HIIT, diet, and more. Sign up for the waitlist, and you’ll be notified as soon as the course opens.