Episode 293: Optimizing Athletic Performance with Ben Mayfield-Smith

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[00:00:00] Dr Mike T Nelson: Welcome back to the Flex Diet podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Mike T nelson. On this podcast, we talk about all things to increase performance, muscle mass, improve body composition, do it all within a flexible framework without destroying your health. Today on the program, all the way from the land down under is my buddy, Ben Mayfield Smith.

[00:00:26] I got to meet him and his wonderful now fiance when they were here at the super coach summit Which was amazing at the end of August Saw them briefly at the gym. We just did get a train together they’re headed out as Allie and I were headed into the gym to train that day, which was great and I wanted to get him on the podcast to share all of his amazing knowledge with all of you guys here.

[00:00:57] So in this one we talk primarily more about the physiology, but also a lot of the psychology, and we switched back and forth between talking to coaches and then just talking about things that can be helpful to you for physique and performance also. soon. Everything from time management to building a sleep routine, the importance of good coaching, how do you navigate client setbacks long term goal setting, lifestyle factors, the value of mentorship and experience, and just a wide range of awesome information Ben had here.

[00:01:42] So I’m super stoked to share all of this with you. And then for sponsors of this podcast, we have Tecton. So if you’re looking for an exogenous ketone drink in a ready to drink can this is definitely my go to. And again, I am a advisor to them and also an ambassador and I’ve been using it more down here as if recording.

[00:02:08] We are down here in South Padre Texas, getting some kiteboarding in. And I’ve noticed that It seems to really help with the, I guess you could say more of the cognitive fatigue from kiteboarding. On the physical side, generally pretty gooT although my abs have been so sore the past two days from doing more jumps.

[00:02:25] So probably need to do more direct ab work in the future. But coming back in, I’ll have one or two cans of Tecton and I feel like I can actually think again after a while when I go back out. So if you’ve ever tried to learn more complex skills. There definitely is a fatiguing component to that, not only physically, but also mentally.

[00:02:46] And I found it works good for that, also if I’ve got to do some writing later at night or if I’m just feeling like I’m a little bit off from lack of sleep, travel etc. It definitely seems to help. So check them out below. They’ve got a link there. You can use the code drmike. To save some money we were also briefly in Austin, Texas, went out to dinner with a friend, shout out to Dave and he was super stoked and happy with Tecton, so that was awesome.

[00:03:15] And then we also have the Flex4, so the Flex4 question I asked Ben was what would be like your top four things, if you had a new coach in front of you, that you’ve learned over the years through your schooling and all your experience. You’re like, man, I wish when I was new, someone sat me down and told me these four things, what would they be?

[00:03:38] So you can get exclusive access to that by going to mike t nelson. com forward slash flex four. That’s F L E X the number four. We’ll put a link there down below. You’ll also get access to all the previous Flex4 questions. Also, I will put you on to the daily newsletter list. If you are already on the newsletter list, then you get exclusive access to the Flex4 already.

[00:04:04] But if you’re not on there, you can hop on for free. Go to the link down below. It’s MikeTNelson. com forward slash. Flex for F L E X, the number four. So without further ado, enjoy this wide ranging conversation with Ben Mayfield Smith.

[00:04:24] [00:04:25] [00:04:30] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yo.

[00:04:32] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yo. What’s up, homie?

[00:04:34] Ben Mayfield-Smith: What’s up, big dog? I feel like I haven’t seen you forever and it’s only been like three weeks.

[00:04:38] Dr Mike T Nelson: I know. Has it been three weeks already?

[00:04:41] Ben Mayfield-Smith: It’s actually pretty, I think it’s pretty close to it.

[00:04:44] Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh, that’s wilT oh, there’s somebody else on here. What is this? Oh, is it just recording on your end?

[00:04:51] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah. For some reason, it’s not letting me drop it out of the actual chat, but it’s just my note taking AI

[00:04:58] Dr Mike T Nelson: should be fine. You made it home.

[00:05:02] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah, man. Oh, man. The last, Aram, yeah?

[00:05:07] Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh yeah. I know Aram.

[00:05:08] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah, so we we stayed with Aram in San Diego after everyone told us not to go back to L.

[00:05:12] A. We modified our trip and yeah. He put us up in San Diego. So I went and seen him spend about three days there before we flew home. It was,

[00:05:20] Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah,

[00:05:20] Ben Mayfield-Smith: it was by the end of it, we were just ready to go. It’s great. GooT it’s always a great meeting. We got to connect with yourself, got to connect and reconnect with people.

[00:05:27] We got to see things, do things, go on the, go to Ohio. But. It was like 33, 000 kilometers of travel by the time we got back to Brisbane.

[00:05:35] Dr Mike T Nelson: Whoa,

[00:05:37] Ben Mayfield-Smith: that’s brutal. Yeah, and it was like 10 flights, 10 flights, a train trip, two bus trips 33, 000 kilometers. And when was it? LA, San Fran, Vegas, Philly, Washington, Virginia, Ohio, San Diego.

[00:05:58] Nine cities. Wow. Over, was it two and a half weeks? Three weeks plus travel days. So I don’t know, but we traveled like a total of 23 days.

[00:06:10] So it added up pretty bloody quickly. Like the flight home was the worst. We had this woman, like absolute Karen. They they brought, for some reason people think it’s wise to travel with two year old kids on long international flights, I don’t know why. But it was just like the child had never been disciplined in his life.

[00:06:26] And so, They thought for some reason they, before the flight even happened, they abused the air hostess because they didn’t have a bassinet thing to carry the baby. And they’d somehow been told that the flight attendants would have a bassinet for the chilT oh, ever in my life. And for some reason, this woman had decided that was a thing and then called this area says you’re a fucking bitch.

[00:06:50] Screw you. Like, how dare you speak to us like this? And then the and across I think it was like, we tried to go to sleep at I don’t know, whatever time it would have been. We had a 1030 flight. So we left American nighttime. We landed Australian morning time. So it was a good link up. But this child found Transcribed it wasn’t just a cry, it was like a scream for help, get me away from this woman.

[00:07:14] Dr Mike T Nelson: Was it like the more, the screech?

[00:07:17] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah.

[00:07:17] Dr Mike T Nelson: Oh.

[00:07:19] Ben Mayfield-Smith: And we’re just like, I’m just like, My agitation for people was just at such a thin level by the time we finished this trip where I’m just like, If this was a human man, I’d have punched it by now. It’s a child, I can’t. But, if it was only a few years older, So that was the nice little finish to the trip.

[00:07:36] So, the rest of it though, was amazing.

[00:07:40] Dr Mike T Nelson: Were you in the the back and coach crammed in like a human cashew then on top of it?

[00:07:45] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah, we haven’t got to where we can pay for our first class tickets. Ideally one day that happens, not yet though.

[00:07:52] Dr Mike T Nelson: I know, I have that on my list. When we went to Australia, I looked at the prices of them and I’m just like, Yeah.

[00:07:59] Holy crap, like I would, my income would have to be so high, not just to have the money to do it, but to have the mind space of being like, I’m okay spending this money

[00:08:12] Ben Mayfield-Smith: here. Yeah. Like I was speaking to Brooklyn. I’m like if it gets to a point where like our goal is to have a large level of like international demand and like just presenting and sharing and teaching, I was like, if it became an option of we’ll either pay you cash to speak or pay for you, like your flights.

[00:08:28] I’m like, I’m taking the flights, but first boss, Amy, I’ll speak for free. Just fly me out there. That I would take that hands down without question. Cause like when I like they walk you out past first class. So you can have, I’m like, I’ve got the spine of a 75 year olT I’m going to walk past this and watch these people like lounging around and feed up and watching their movies with like first class headphones.

[00:08:52] And this is I just feel like an absolute loser. So like for me, if I ever get to that point where someone’s We’ll pay you a flight without you taking tickets.

[00:09:01] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, especially on those long flights that’s 12 to 13 hours plus it’s to me like if you could go to sleep in a comfortable position and sleep for 8 to 9 hours.

[00:09:12] That is like the ultimate not only travel hack to me. That’s like a that’s time travel That’s like as close to my lifetime as I’ll ever get to the actual time travel.

[00:09:23] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah, especially when like in America So when we land we actually go back in time.

[00:09:27] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah,

[00:09:27] Ben Mayfield-Smith: We left Wednesday. We landed Wednesday So like we’ve gained basically like a whole day after traveling that far.

[00:09:33] So I’m like If we can do this, like in first class where you basically close your eyes and blink, you’re basically there like that’s I would wake up refreshed, happy, relaxed, chilled, but not be able to sit and crammed up like on the first, the way home was good because it wasn’t as many people. So Brooklyn was like, we had a road to ourselves.

[00:09:50] So

[00:09:50] Dr Mike T Nelson: that

[00:09:52] Ben Mayfield-Smith: was gooT cause I’m like, I can stretch you out on my feet up on the way in I’m on the, on the window seat, like I’m 107 kilos coming to America. But trying to wedge onto me and I’m like trying to tuck myself in so I don’t like cram her space and I’m like this sucks it just sucks.

[00:10:09] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah that was like my experience flying to Amsterdam when I was doing the teaching there with Luke. The way over you know I paid for an exit row which ironically wasn’t that much more it’s only 80 bucks more I’m like oh hell yeah. And I got lucky that no one was in the middle seat and said plenty of room, like long flight.

[00:10:26] The guy next to me was super quiet, super chill. It’s long, but it’s, it was very doable. Got off, went to the gym was cool. The way home, flight got delayed, get on the flight. The person checking me in basically said, you’re happy you got a seat, suck it up, deal with it. So I’m in the back, rammed into this even tiny seat next to halitosis Harry, who every time he turned his head, you could just like your hair almost melteT

[00:10:54] and Oh, it was so baT

[00:10:56] Ben Mayfield-Smith: yeah. It was funny. We had a conversation in cab. He’s Oh man, I’ve got to fly to the Atlantic and fly to Paris. And I’m like, Oh, how long is that flight? He’s 60 hours. It’s exhausting. I was like, fuck you. Oh, yeah. Shut up, Cav. He’s oh, you guys don’t understand, it’s so busy, we’re going back and forth from France.

[00:11:15] I’m like, oh, how long is that? He’s six hours. I’m like, man, fuck, we do that just to go back to the west coast. Shut up.

[00:11:21] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and I think he’s flying in first class, too.

[00:11:24] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah, it’s not like he’s going over there on chump tickets.

[00:11:26] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.

[00:11:28] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah, he’s sitting with the peasants. He’s done his time.

[00:11:30] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.

[00:11:30] Ugh. Heh.

[00:11:33] Ben Mayfield-Smith: But yeah, no, the rest of the trip, like the podcast, fantastic. Like we spoke for three hours.

[00:11:39] Dr Mike T Nelson: They, I’m so excited to listen to that one.

[00:11:41] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah, it was it was gooT like it was one of the first times where someone had actually spoke to me beyond just like sets and reps. Like a lot of the time, like I’ll speak about bodybuilding and stuff like that, but we set the thing that obviously is thing is send what you want to talk about beforehand because we obviously haven’t met, so he doesn’t know what I do and so We added down like touch to what we really want to focus on.

[00:12:01] And it was good to have someone who had never met me. And it was like how we started chatting straight away. It was just like, my profiles, blood profiles, it was like actual nerd shit straight away, as opposed to what’s the best maximal length position for potential hypertrophy? Like I don’t care.

[00:12:18] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah.

[00:12:19] Ben Mayfield-Smith: And it was like, we actually got speaking about like psychology, athletes, mindsets, like the way we approach prepping people and stuff. And it was like, I was like, holy shit. And that was luckily I had some Adafinil, caffeine and some Monsters. He was ripping the zims. Like he must’ve had five or six of them in the whole trip.

[00:12:36] I was like, all right, so that was gooT

[00:12:39] Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah. Well, that was the topic I was thinking about today too, was just we’re already recording. So, I think most trainers, if you would agree, the sets and reps thing is most people are either, they’re going to do whatever they’re going to do. Or they have a system that they already like.

[00:12:57] So the topic I was thinking about is. So what’s beyond sets and reps, right? Because I, especially with the rise of AI and all automation and everything else gone are the days of a trainer. That’s just going to count reps. I’d say gone are the days of a trainer who’s even doing solid nutrition and programming.

[00:13:15] That’s just a no brainer. Like you have to do that or you’re not even considereT and I think the future is. Especially for even bodybuilding, competitive, gen pop, what else do you do? What lifestyle components do you do? Do you talk about sleep? Do you talk about psychology? Do you, all these things that AI can’t replace right now and may never be able to replace?

[00:13:37] And to me, all those things are the things that actually make good coaching, whether people know that or not, in terms of customers looking at what you’re doing.

[00:13:46] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah, I think that’s huge. Do you want to get in that question now or do you reckon that’s where we go with it?

[00:13:50] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, just start talking.

[00:13:53] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah, we’ve got time. No, I agree. So one of the things that I’ve really noticed, and I had this conversation several times in America, was the shift away from in, in the composition space, the bodybuilding spaces, people don’t understand the coaching skill. A lot of people when you come from like a sporting background, like I can almost tell the difference pretty quickly between coaches and people that have never had a sporting background and just look at body composition coaching as I’ve got lean so I know how to get you.

[00:14:23] Anyway. It’s not wrong to a degree, but when you’ve had that background of understanding the impact that a good coach can have on a person’s life and the impact that a good coach can have on your perception, your abilities, your what you think you’re capable of, that to me sets up a very different dynamic in how you deal with people.

[00:14:41] And that’s just something that I noticed, even in America, in just the people that I’ve interacted with, people that I know is either you spend a lot of time harnessing or learning the soft skills. Or you’ve actually had a background where you’ve either been a coach or you’ve had coaches. You’ve had a sporting history, a competitive history where you understand the dynamic that a good coach can play in life.

[00:15:00] And that’s something that I think comes through in our system quite well, that I really tried to ingrain in it is that it’s so much more now than just sets and reps. Like you said it’s yeah, you can prescribe macros and a training program, but That’s, level one that realistically, like if all things are equal, we’ve got a client that is quite competent, has great training, acumen, has the understanding, knows how to do data tracking sets and reps is bare minimum, like that used to be the, back in the day when you’re a face-to-face pt, or you’re a start in the online space.

[00:15:31] It used to be that was the metric of good, you would set up a program that ran for six to eight weeks, maybe four weeks, you change it every once in a while, they got their meal plan or they got their macros and their calorie intake and let’s start working on these things.

[00:15:43] And that was like, holy hell this coach is mind blowing. Like this guy gives a shit.

[00:15:47] Dr Mike T Nelson: Differentiator to like, Oh my God, you did 10 by three to get someone strong. You’re a wizarT take my money. Yeah.

[00:15:57] Ben Mayfield-Smith: But I think that was true. That was a, if you actually had a program in place versus Hey, the client roped up, we did a session, like you were already an outlier from the door

[00:16:08] Dr Mike T Nelson: because the amount of

[00:16:08] Ben Mayfield-Smith: times, like even I did it, like when I started out, there was some people who love the idea of a program.

[00:16:12] Right. Wanted to come train before I was outside of working with me face to face, they were like, they would love it. But then there was also clients that were just like, Hey, I just want this session to hurt and I want to go through a burner and, put me through a chest day. I’m not going to track anything.

[00:16:26] Just put me through a chest day or upper body day or something like that. I might come in two more times during the week. Sometimes there are those clients where, you know, especially face to face, they just paying you for a therapy session and to feel something. That’s really what that is, but that to me is a trainer we’re talking about coaching.

[00:16:42] And once you start heading down that route of being a coach, which I think is a way too self diagnosed term nowadays, I think there’s a lot more to a coaching diet, a coaching definition than just saying, I am a coach. Once you start heading down that route, the sets and rep model just becomes all sets, reps, macros, the X and Ys, if you will, the X nos.

[00:16:59] They just become a bare minimum concept that has to go into the path. It’s part and parcel with what you’re doing. It’s like saying that you’re an electrician. Oh, I deal with wires. Yeah, you should deal with wires. That’s your job. I wouldn’t brag about that per se. It’s oh, it’s included in my custom programming.

[00:17:16] You’re all your programming should be custom. What do you mean? That’s a weird flex now to be in 2024 where I see people put like inside my package, you get custom programming. Okay. So you get programming, like you get coaching. That’s what it should be. That’s. the acceptable bare minimum level.

[00:17:30] But as you touched on, like there starts to become so many more metrics and intangibles tangibles that we have to start considering. And this is where the aspect of coaching comes so important. You start to look at The quantitative, we have the data, we track our metrics, we have the things we’re looking for there, and then we start to look at the qualitative.

[00:17:52] What is that? What is going on? That’s non tangible that I can’t see, but I want you to tell me about how is it feeling, what’s happening? What is your perception of stress this week? What’s your perception of anxiety this week? What’s impacting your sleep? We got the sleep number, seven hours, but it was a terrible quality or what’s going on around them.

[00:18:08] What is leading to the sleep factors that are having this disrupted sleep cycle because we know, we’ll get into all these things if you want to go through at least four to five sleep cycles overnight and make sure you’re hitting all different phases of REM and non REM sleep. But if you’re getting seven hours, are you saying, yep that’s, I got my number, but yeah the qualitative is off.

[00:18:26] And I’m feeling terrible when I wake up, well, that’s now where coaching in the online space has to come in. We’re going to be asking the right questions. We’re going to be getting from the athlete individual what’s happening. And that’s where I think that next level has to go. And like you said, I don’t think AI will get to that point of such interactive connection.

[00:18:46] There is just, there is that point in time where. The human can’t be replaced by the robotic model because you can’t program the human experience. You can’t program my response to human experience because that’s two humans meeting. And I think that’s a huge factor that people have to comprehend with systemize as much as you can, but Really getting to that next level of being a coach where like you want to work with world class bodybuilders.

[00:19:10] You want to get someone to that next level condition, that next level performance on the track or the field or the gym or the platform. It’s up here where that starts to matter. And it’s in the intangibles where it starts to add up. I use this example all the time. There’s a reason why when you look at the NBA.

[00:19:25] 99 percent of the NBA all have the same skill. They’re all really gooT they can dribble, pass, shoot, fake. They can fade. They can, screen passes. They can screen defense. They know these things, right? They’re in the NBA. They’re great. But what makes Jordan or Kobe or LeBron so much better? It’s the things they do up here and how they perceive those things, how they come back from setbacks, how they, look at the non negotiable during their week.

[00:19:48] Was there a loss or is there a win? Well, it’s a loss. What’s the learning curve they can take from it? It’s a win. What do they give to the rest of the teams so they can stay elevated and hyped up? These things start becoming intangible. It’s hard to track, but as a coach, we have to dig into and figure out.

[00:20:01] And that to me, pairs right down to even the average gen pop client who just wants to get better and have a better experience of coaching. So I completely agree that I just don’t think there will ever be a point in time where the AI model replaces the entire integration of a human. I’d be very disappointed if I learned that coaches were doing that.

[00:20:19] I think it has a place, but having that ability to differentiate yourself by the fact that you are real and you understand the soft stuff. Not just the hardware, expos mitigating, manipulating macros and metabolism and trying to, drive hypertrophy with a certain rep scheme and I’m going through a strength phase, like that stuff’s great, but it has to have a purpose.

[00:20:39] But the next point from that has to be us as coaches getting into the person. You’re dealing with a person, you’re dealing with a real human being that is going to have. Their own internal intangible variables are coming to play. And with every input, we know there’s an output. So we have to be able to understand and digest and break down and figure out those outputs and then how to mitigate them.

[00:21:02] And again, that to me starts being coachy.

[00:21:05] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And I think, and one thing I’ve probably been guilty of doing this too, is a poorly. Communicating those intangibles, right? Cause you’ll have someone who starts and I think of a couple of clients, everything’s going gooT like you, you have some macros, you do some protein habits, whatever.

[00:21:23] You got some training, got some everything going and everything’s going gooT like they’re on track. They’re on track month, one month, two months, three. It’s right around that third month, they’re like, Why am I paying you all this money? You just told me to eat more protein, do a few simple things, and You tried to explain to them that Well, one, you had to pick all these options out of other things to do.

[00:21:46] And you don’t want to tell them that there’s some shit coming, after you’ve coached enough people, everybody has some shit coming at some point, like life is going to happen to everyone. They’re going to get thrown off. Something’s going to happen, injury, illness, whatever. And to me, that’s where you’re paying money for a higher level coach is how do you get through those obstacles?

[00:22:10] Because that’s where most people just. Get a really bad case of the buckets and they’re back to where they were before.

[00:22:17] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah, I completely agree. Like in, so one of the ways we look at it is I actually judge a client’s progress by how far they fall back. So it is back to the change models. We look at the trans theoretical model, the concept and the psychological understanding of behavior change in any level, whether it be lead athlete or the gym pop person trying to improve protein intake.

[00:22:39] There is always going to be a setback, what we call a relapse. Now, you can judge a client on how they’re doing when things are going great. I would argue that’s a valuable approach to understanding their life and how they’re progressing because everyone does well when things are gooT it’s an artificial

[00:22:53] Dr Mike T Nelson: view.

[00:22:54] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Exactly. It’s an inflated view of how life is going and how they’re acting as an athlete or an individual. Because Mike Tyson says, Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. And everyone’s able to execute that plan until that first hit lands. So, are we judging someone on how things are going when it’s going great and it’s easy?

[00:23:11] And then one of the things that I find that is a real easy way to tell the difference between a good coach and not so good coach is how do they approach that setback, that fallback, that hiccup, that off the wagon week or day or month. Are we attacking the person or are we addressing, are we confronting them with insult with abuse?

[00:23:29] My clients aren’t motivateT they lack discipline. They blah, blah, blah. Well, they’re a representation of you. So if they’re lacking something, why didn’t you teach them? So to me the best approach or one of the best ways to look at it is when that setback happens. How far do we fall? Well, a really easy way to gauge it, right?

[00:23:44] Is we track that tangible data. So one of the things we do is ask questions like, what’s a win this week? What’s a loss this week or a setback or something that you struggle with? And in that, you’ll get two very distinct answers. But when you start to work with someone brand new, getting a full week of tracking protein is basically a win, right?

[00:24:01] Like they’ll say, you know what, I tracked my protein, I’ve got three serves of vegetables there, that’s a win. But I also went and had, half a carton of beer and, Pizza on the weekend and my calories blew out. So it’s like the win is good, right? We’ve gone up, we can see this. It’s a very small win.

[00:24:16] It’s oh, you tracked your protein. For an elite athlete, that’s like a bare minimum. For a new person that’s a huge win. The setback though was massive. They fell pretty far, like it’s, they basically increased their surplus rather than being a deficit just by that one weekend activity.

[00:24:29] Now, six months down the track, and I’m working with people, I’ll see things like I hit, protein, carbohydrates, I was within 5 percent of my fats. I hit 500 grams of vegetables, I didn’t miss a session, my steps were done. I’m looking forward to that now getting to 10 percent body fat instead of 15.

[00:24:46] So all of a sudden, those wins are so exponentially higher. And you can see that they’ve actually progressed in what the skill is, the skill becomes harder, like they’re setting higher expectations of self, and they’re achieving higher standards of operation. And But with that, because they have now these new baselines of behavior, well, the loss, oh, I forgot to track Tuesday.

[00:25:03] That’s hang on, rather than looking at it as a negative where clients often will write the car. I’m a horrible person. I didn’t track my food Tuesday. Remember six months ago when you’re off week was you had 5, 000 calories of pizza or beer you’re challenging yourself because you had, you didn’t miss, you didn’t track Tuesday.

[00:25:22] So I use those progressions of wins because that means we’re building skills or building new habits. The systemization is occurring, which is what leads to great results. As James clear says, you fall to your systems. You don’t rise to the level of the goals. But with that, we’re also assessing the fallback.

[00:25:37] So what is a loss this week? Oh, I only got three liters of water instead of four. Well, six months ago, you weren’t even having water twice a day. So that’s a win. I’m taking that as a win. It’s just, you’ve got to flip that lens. As we said in the behavior change model, the trans theoretical model relapse is inevitable.

[00:25:52] But if I can say, let’s say you go five steps forward and you used to fall back for, yes, it’s still a net positive, but it’s a big drop. That’s a slow win. That’s going to take a lot of time. Can I teach you over that time where you move five, you only drop one, and then it becomes like, well, now we’re at a net positive of four and you just keep raising that bar.

[00:26:10] That’s to me, like, where we start seeing the client’s ability to change, ability to get results, ability to progress. And this can be for anyone, an elite athlete who doesn’t handle their rehab. Okay, well, in the past, when you rehab with people, you might have only done it once a week and you were half arseT

[00:26:26] now you’re with our system where we’re working. You’re smashing rehab four days a week, hitting all the targets. You’re doing what the physio is telling you to do. We’re getting your strength back in. We’re recovering faster than you expecteT yes, it’s not a hundred percent. I’m not back straight away, but like that progress of you as an athlete is now tenfold what it was six or 12 months ago with other coaches.

[00:26:45] So those intangibles start to become factors. We can quantify by having qualitative questions and just having that ability to ask the right questions, to feel the right information. And then it starts to paint your picture. Where am I winning? Where am I losing? What is that win compared to what it was?

[00:26:58] And where is that loss compared to what it was? So those are like two really simple ways that I will just attack that what is almost intangible and put it into something that we can measure or at least assess.

[00:27:10] Dr Mike T Nelson: That’s awesome. I love that because you’re it’s like the carrot and the stick, right? In different, what I’ve noticed with people’s different personalities, some people are highly motivated by avoiding the negative.

[00:27:24] Some people, if you Even say anything remotely negative, they just completely crumble, right? So you’re trying to more build them up and it’s not always the same, but yet the process of, what’s going well, what can we improve is the same. Just how you’re coaching it and how you’re trying to get people to that point could look radically different from one person to the next.

[00:27:49] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Oh, it is. It absolutely is. You’ll, the average coach will work with a derived, a diversity of people. Yeah. But with those questions, like you said, we set a baseline expectation of systemization. So the answers are going to be stark differences in comparison. One person will be happy.

[00:28:02] They had two serves of protein a day and got supporter. The their loss might be that, like I said, bingy for a whole weekend and come back five kilos heavier on Monday. For another person, it might be, the win this week was like, I set a PB of 5 percent of my deadlift and I’m two weeks out from the platform.

[00:28:15] That’s amazing. Wow. Well done. The setback might be that I forgot to do my prehab for one day. So like the differences you’ll get a huge, but then you’re able to coach the individual on where they are. And that’s the big thing I think coaches don’t understand is they’ll set these amazing plans and protocols and this is my system.

[00:28:29] You should be at it if you work with me. The reality is most people that come to coaching, they’re starting at a certain level. Yes, ideal worlT we have very highly conscientious, low neurotic people that are very task orientated and driven, higher in openness where they have a degree of they have an ability to perceive new ideas, but they’re agreeable in the sense they’re highly coachable.

[00:28:49] That would be the perfect athlete or person to work with. That isn’t 99 percent of the coaching industry.

[00:28:53] Dr Mike T Nelson: That does not exist.

[00:28:54] Ben Mayfield-Smith: It’s a unicorn. So we have to understand that the person we’re working with is at a level. Our job is to meet them at that level and then raise them to the athlete or person that they want to be and we can see them be.

[00:29:07] That is what I think the objective job of coaching is. When you start looking at really break it down. It’s I’m meeting you where you are. And I know you have a level you personally probably don’t see the potential that I do, but my job is to extract that out of you and get you to operate at that level.

[00:29:21] And then once we get to that level, one of the things I find on top of that is you start to see people really open up what the potential could be. And they start to realize what happens if I go nail this even more? What if I hone in really tight? What if I just focus on this? Now that potential is even higher.

[00:29:35] Now that ability is like even further, the ceiling has been raiseT and it’s well, what’s next? And that’s again, as coaches, that becomes a job. We’re trying to extract out of people, a belief they might not necessarily have about themselves, though we can see it and have them work at that level.

[00:29:52] Dr Mike T Nelson: And once you, let’s say you identify a loss. So someone, ah, I just I fell into three Chinese buffets over the weekend and I’m, seven kgs higher on Monday. It’s Ooh, look, I’m actually using metrics. I’m talking to the Aussie guy, but then you have a level of awareness, right? So you obviously, they reported it.

[00:30:13] So you can talk about that. Do you have any system or thought pattern of, okay. Once they’re aware of it, like, where does your brain go in terms of how am I going to tackle this thing?

[00:30:26] Ben Mayfield-Smith: I would say it depends on the client I guess any good coaching answer should be, it depends, but

[00:30:31] Dr Mike T Nelson: sure,

[00:30:31] Ben Mayfield-Smith: The, let’s say on average, right.

[00:30:35] As most of the literature says. Attacking someone is going to re ingrain the behavior and probably create emotional distance from them. They’re not going to feel confident trust in the future. We’re trying to build trust with our clients. I’m trying to build a level of openness and communication. They have slipped up.

[00:30:49] They have told us about this. Thank you for that conversation. Thank you for being able to have that communication with me. I’ve had clients in the past who don’t do that. It makes it hard to coach them. This coachable learning experience. The first thing that I’ll do is Thanks to my background in psychology is what I’m studying.

[00:31:09] I’ve got a separate certification, things like acceptance, commitment therapy. So I apply these principles where possible with my clients. When a situation has happened, there’s nothing but acceptance. You can’t change it, so there’s no point going back and beating yourself up. I’m not going to attack you for what it is.

[00:31:23] I’m going to use it as a chance to help you and teach you. It happeneT there is nothing you can change about the fact. So, being emotionally stimulated by the idea or erotically stimulated by the idea that you had it, and therefore you’re a POS and, screw you and you’re a bad client, that serves no one.

[00:31:37] It’s probably going to drive them away from coaching. A lot of the time, that is what drives people away from coaching.

[00:31:40] Dr Mike T Nelson: No doubt about it.

[00:31:42] Ben Mayfield-Smith: It’s a fear of being harassed, attacked, criticized, because the reality is most people aren’t high conscientious, low neurotic driven robots. They’re going to have these moments in situations.

[00:31:53] So a degree of acceptance almost becomes essential. Let’s just simply accept the fact that it is, it’s happened, it was, that’s it. Now what do we go from there? Well, we can start to get into some of the qualitative things. You had that situation, right? How did you feel afterwards? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I recognized by the second buffet.

[00:32:14] I was pretty full. I probably should have, I probably should have been at that point where I’m like, you know what, I’m just feeling bloated here and eating like an asshole because that’s what, I, that’s just what everyone else was doing. Okay, cool. So did you feel pressured to do it or did you choose to do it?

[00:32:29] Was it like you put yourself in that situation on purpose or did you feel the group just went there and you were tagging along? Well, the group was hassling me because I wanted to go home and I was, I was done drinking and eating and they were trying to kick on and keep it going and I felt guilty.

[00:32:42] Okay, so there’s a level of guilt and shame that goes with this. The type of people you’re associating with aren’t really aligned with where you’re trying to go. Let’s look at how that works. Let’s assess your environment. How do we get you to be in a better environment where you’re able to control the situation more and still be present with friends and family?

[00:32:57] Well, not all these friends are people that are necessarily going to be arounT it’s just some of them are close friends and the rest are assholes, but I wouldn’t be there. Okay, so then we start getting into the, again, these start becoming coachable situations where I’m like, I’m not telling you to cut the friends, but let’s look at the situations you’re putting yourself in.

[00:33:11] Can you take accountability and ownership here? Yes, you are directly responsible for the people you hang around for the places that you go to the locations that you’re in. So how can we shift this? How can we change this? What are you in control of? Well, I probably could have made sure I had my protein and vegetables first during the day.

[00:33:26] I could make sure I had water intake. Okay, so then by the time you get to the buffet, you’re already pretty full. You’ve had a day with like high fiber vegetables and fruit and protein. But you’ve got some calories to play around with and I start teaching them, use that as a chance to teach some skills.

[00:33:39] Well, if you calorie bank or you preamble that it’s going to happen, which you know in your past, you go out with these guys, you get drunk and eat shit fooT what if we make sure you’ve had good food first, so there’s some calories in the bank, but you’re going to be so full from the good food you’ve had today that you’re not going to feel starved or depleteT

[00:33:55] you’re not going to feel hungry. So then all of a sudden the alcohol comes in and the Chinese buffet, you’ve got low frontal inhibition. You’ve got a inhibition to say no to these people because they have a social pressure from the past and you have a craving for food, high salt, high sodium, sorry carbohydrates and fats.

[00:34:12] Very palatable, very easy to eat. And now you’re creating an environment that is basically just a spiral for negative behavior and consumption that’s conflicting with your goals. Well, if you control some of those things, you’ve now put a limit on how bad that could be. So I can’t use it depending on where the client is to teach scale to what they know, and what might be their level of coaching.

[00:34:35] I’m not going to say drop all your friends. Don’t have a drink again. Don’t go have Chinese buffet, but it’s going to be like, Hey, next time, because this will probably happen next time. Can we limit it to one buffet? Can we limit it to one plate? Can we limit it to make sure that you’re having protein and vegetables across the day first, because you’ll be so full.

[00:34:51] You won’t be able to get to the second one. Yes. All right. And then you just use that to again, use your scaffolding and teaching the skills and the mental frameworks and abilities. So that client now has autonomy to make decisions in the future. What also has happened is that they now feel connected to me.

[00:35:06] They now feel trusting with me. We have a relationship where I’m actually using that to teach them. And from there, they’re going to be able to really build motivation. Like we spoke about it, the coach cattle summit, when we look at self determination theory, the three pillars relatedness, connect relatedness, competency, and autonomy.

[00:35:21] I’m empowering that client to make their own choices. They’ve now displayed those choices work. And they’re feeling trusting with me. We have a relationship. I’m not going to criticize them for messing up the next week that goes on, they’ve never got tools to put in play. And realistically, all we’re doing as coaches is building a baseline of skills and tools.

[00:35:37] So they haven’t asked them to know that, Hey, the weekend’s coming up. I’m going to do bang come Monday. Things are sweet. And it’s again, it’s the difference between a preset 12 week program that was like, I do 12 week booty challenges. I don’t have a time frame. I work with people.

[00:35:51] I build with them until they’re at a point where they no longer need me, and then they choose to stay or they move on. And ideally, for my Gen Pop clients that aren’t moving to physique competition, they have a baseline of skills and abilities where they come back to me because they want the next goal, not because they have to.

[00:36:05] And we’ve taught them enough where it’s like, you can have that Sunday event and not feel guilty Monday because you’ve got all these skills to implement. And you’re still accountable. You’re still trusting the system. You’re still getting results. But you’re also still able to be social with your friend and go out.

[00:36:18] You’re just probably more cautious and aware of the decision you’re making. That is coaching. And it’s making lasting impact where they aren’t going to come back to me in 10 weeks time with the same spiral. And you see the six week challenges, they smash it for six weeks, go all right for a week, drop off the wagon.

[00:36:36] Now they’re back to me two weeks later for the exact same thing. I’m teaching you to not need me and you choose to come back if you want to.

[00:36:42] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, there’s an article I should write at some point that I haven’t yet, but it’s basically the entitle. The title is how to lose weight when all your friends are assholes.

[00:36:53] Yes. Because it’s almost always. Social issues. It’s, some people have only been taught, I don’t feel good biochemical solution, right? It’s culture, we work in an office like, Hey, celebrations always, birthday cake or food or whatever. But I like what you said about giving people the skillset and kind of the optionality of what to do in those situations.

[00:37:24] And it’s also a weird thing because. On one level, people know it, but yet don’t, right? So looking from an outside, you would be like, Oh, these seem like rather simple things you’re doing. But yet when you’re in that moment, it’s crazy that those ideas don’t come into your heaT like I’ve never had a client who’s, Oh yeah, we’re at the bar.

[00:37:51] I’m at my third beer and I’m facedown on a plate of nachos. It goes, Oh, if I had protein before this wouldn’t happen. Like in that time point it just doesn’t. So I think even having just the time period away to review it, to know you have a skill set. And I like what you also said is that you’re not just telling people, well, bro, don’t do that.

[00:38:09] Right. Okay. Really? That’s your advice. Like just avoid everything. That’s, that is not a long term strategy. That’s just the ability to white knuckle through shit. And we know that’s not going to last long term. Okay.

[00:38:22] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah, avoidance is a horrible stretch. Avoidance is one of the avoidance is one of the key pillars or experiential avoidance is one of the key pillars that acceptance and commitment therapy works to confront.

[00:38:31] It’s like people that try to avoid life and hide it in ways like the, even just avoiding ownership and accountability, avoiding the decisions you made, like the ability to do that for people is so easy. And so teaching them to like, to be able to step away from the experience first, to accept that it happeneT

[00:38:49] and then you’re empowering that client to use hindsight, which we all know, everyone knows hindsight is the 20, 20, right? Like we, it’s great. So let’s use that hindsight to go, well, let’s be honest with yourself. How shitty did you feel after six beers and a buffet and a pizza? I felt crap. I, I was gastro out of both ends.

[00:39:07] The next day I didn’t move. I slept on the couch for 12 hours. Okay. So do you want to do that again next time? Preferably not. And one of the things I actually find with my clients when we work this way, is they naturally start to evolve their life with it anyway. Because if we expand that view, what actually happens when you start to make these decisions?

[00:39:29] Where you start to assess, not only the situation, you’re drinking and eating shitty food, but Shouldn’t your friends want to be supportive of your goals? Well, if your friends are supportive of your goals, why are they taking you out drinking and getting you blind drunk and pressuring you to eat crap food when you’re saying, hey, I actually don’t feel comfortable with myself.

[00:39:43] I want to drop 20 kilos. I’m with a coach. This is what I want to do. To me, that starts to tell you what, well, it tells me my client’s results. They start to assess their friendships. Well, how many people actually serve me? And I’ve just been kind of someone that I linger around with because of high school or, my, my small town syndrome or I don’t know any different.

[00:40:00] It’s the team that I played in or it’s the group that I used to know. Well, majority of my clients, when they started down this process, they started assessing all these factors. Now I wrote an ebook called how to build your optimal environment. And it starts looking at all these factors that like your environment, every place that you exist in, right?

[00:40:16] It’s every domain that you exist, but it’s also the people that you surround yourself with. It’s the locations you choose to be. It’s the information you put in your environment, the stimulus, the data, the input, the output. All these things start to make up your environment. So if we’re heading down that rabbit hole, I don’t really need to optimize, your length and tension relationship.

[00:40:35] I don’t need to maximize the resistance curve of the machine. I don’t need to give you some specific like length and partial hypertrophy. The program will take care of itself. I’m going to teach you to train F and R first. Like my big approach is learn to fail first before it gets complicateT you don’t need, gas principle, four week deloads every single week.

[00:40:51] Like most people that start with me in the first three to six months, I might deload twice. Okay. Because as they build their train acumen, they learn to fail before failure is necessary. And then before they actually build fatigue. So for me, that takes care of itself. Keep the program simple. We’re looking at more of optimizing the life variables that are going to make impact to the response of training, to the response of their fooT

[00:41:11] and that starts to take care of themselves. And they start to evolve their own life alongside of it. All my works, my work stress and situation shit for the life goals that I have. Okay. Okay. Do you have other skills? I’m probably gonna look at a different job. Fantastic. What have you been waiting for? Probably this conversation.

[00:41:25] Okay, go do it. Let’s start putting out the tender. Just start putting it out there. The amount of clients that I’ve worked with that have changed finally to a job they loved or like just moved to a new job because it wasn’t supporting their other goals, their life. And they realize Oh, I want to spend more time with my family and train.

[00:41:37] Okay. I was working 20 hours a week, 20 hours a day helping me with that. No. Okay. Well go deal with that. Now I’ve got that taken care of. Okay. What’s your sleep habit? What’s your actual sleep? I call it building your sleep routine. What does your sleep routine and wind down time look like? Well, I’m usually working up until the point I go to bed and then I go to sleep while I’m stresseT

[00:41:55] I’m probably having a beer or a coffee while I’m trying to work. I don’t know. I don’t know. None of that screams good sleep. So let’s, what’s keeping you up at night? Mates want to go out. I’m late from work. I don’t have things prepared in the morning. So it’s backwards in my days. Okay. So time management’s an issue.

[00:42:10] Let’s teach that like all these things start to become optimized where the input from training is so simple that it gets a result because the other factors take care of. And now the client is just naturally evolving their own life and feeling better. And we all know when someone feels better, they feel happier.

[00:42:25] They’re more engaged and motivateT they’re going to push harder in the gym. They have more mental capacity. So that’s where, to me, it starts to become this unique journey and every client will start differently with where they are, with what friends they have, what people I know, what level of coaching they’re at, but it naturally progresses.

[00:42:41] And I get the point, especially for my body composition clients, not physique prep athletes, but just body composition clients. They’ll want to keep improving things and optimizing things where it might be. They want to look at TRT or HRT. They want to look at how do I maximize that? How do I maximize my, now we move to maximizing training potential.

[00:42:57] So, And then it gets to a point where they’re in such a good spot. I give them the option. Hey, we’ve nailed everything here. You’re in a great position. Yeah, you have a great frame. Everything’s looking gooT the next intensity here for you is either a photo shoot or like we push you down to really lean and we start looking at, do you ever want to get on stage again?

[00:43:14] Do you want to compete? And usually it’ll be them approaching me. Like the amount of times where I’ve actually talked my clients off competing, like we spoke about in America. I’ve talked so many of my clients off competing that usually the ones that do well are the ones that come to me never wanting to compete and say, Hey, actually I want to try this now.

[00:43:27] I’ve mastered everything else. I’m actually really keen to see what I can do. And that’s where it’s like there’s a jump off point where it’s the body composition goal is just extreme enough where it’s healthy. It’s still gooT it’s still you can still have a little bit of a social life and experience normal things, but not, you don’t have a lot of room for error.

[00:43:45] And that’s a pivot point where like my clients will stay here or, and they’ll build that life. Or we’ll move to that next goal, which is I want to be 7 percent photoshoot, I want to be comfortable taking my shirt off with apthenes, or I want to get on stage. That next goal becomes a bit more extreme, we start to really tighten stuff up, and now I can coach you to be an athlete.

[00:44:02] And, but the reason why we can do that is we’ve built all those fundamental behaviors. Your life has evolved to the point where you know what you want, you are stating what you want to achieve, what you want to work toward, the goals are clear. And I think that’s a huge natural progress for my clients that they generally check, tend to to follow because we’re less worried about the X and O’s of programming.

[00:44:23] And it’s more about how do I evolve you as a person to get the most out of the time of me and just get the most out of your time of life. Because realistically, like physique, and I say this all the time, physique development should be reflective of the life you’re trying to build and you as a person, you shouldn’t be ruining your life to physique development, you should be ruining your life to get 3 percent body fat.

[00:44:45] But realistically, if it’s done properly, life development should pair alongside the endeavor of physique development and enhancement. And when it’s done properly, it can be completely life changing.

[00:44:57] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, that’s one concept I wish I would have, of. Realize sooner. So similar to you, like one of the things I look for now is probably many years ago, I would have said, okay, it’s client’s going to stay longer.

[00:45:09] They’re going to have another goal, that type of thing. But the goal was always within whatever they were doing. Now they deadlifted three 15. Now they want to deadlift three 50 or whatever. And now I look at, can we get them to the point where they’re looking at, like you mentioned expansion. Oh, like I’ve had a couple of clients who, want to compete in grip sport, want to compete in powerlifting, wanna.

[00:45:31] Do something different, or even Recreation, a couple of clients, took up wake surfing, wakeboarding, all of them took up kiteboarding. It wasn’t necessarily anything I said, you definitely need to go do this. It was, they’re like, Oh, I always wanted to do this thing.

[00:45:46] I was never in shape. It would, the thought of them ever being able to do that, they were not in a good enough physical or mental space to realize they could actually do it. And then once they get to that mental and physical space, they realize, Oh, wow. I can Go play golf. I can go, whatever. So to me, that was super cool.

[00:46:06] And one of the things I look for now, even if they leave my coaching and go off and do on their own, like that’s. To me, that’s like a huge win because I feel like I know I’ve definitely improved their life by giving them more options to do things.

[00:46:23] Ben Mayfield-Smith: I think that is one of the motivating factors as a coach that so I put out a lot of free lectures and stuff, right.

[00:46:29] It’s dumb information on my perception of things. And one of the things I put out, I ran a workshop on was understanding the purpose of business coaching lens. There’s a lot of people just get into coaching with this idea of I’m She sits on the waterfront and it’s only

[00:46:44] Dr Mike T Nelson: Five minutes a day.

[00:46:45] You have to work, right? If you’re an online coach what do you do? You don’t, you put the program in, you yell at him about macro is bro that’s it, right?

[00:46:52] Ben Mayfield-Smith: We’re done. That’s it. That’s six days a week to chill out. The funny part is most of the people that I genuinely believe this to be true.

[00:47:01] When you chase the money, the business collapses. When you chase fulfillment, the money comes to flight. So when you look at that purpose, that fulfillment, like what you’ve just described, that gives me fulfillment of what I’m doing. When I see someone like come to me, they’re like, Hey, I actually nailed this.

[00:47:15] I didn’t know that I had the ability to do this. What can I do next? And you’re like, yeah, that question, when we started, you were 30 percent body fat, like my guy get on stage this weekenT so, the 14th, by the time this comes out, he started arounT the 30, 35 percent body fat mark, he started at a level of just he wasn’t happy with himself.

[00:47:34] He started with me with a, Hey, I’ve done other coaches before, but I really want to see how I can tighten up and push my physique and look as good as possible. Then it got to the point where his partner started with me. She wanted to compete as well as a wellness athlete. And then I was like, well, if she’s doing it, our environment is optimal for this.

[00:47:50] Her environment is literally curated for this lifestyle. All I’m doing is really going from fourth gear to fifth. I want to push myself to see what I’m capable of. See if I can get there. And now he’s a day out and it’s finally starting to hit him. He’s actually gone from, 30 plus percent body fat to what is five, four.

[00:48:05] And it’s you did that yourself. Like you were able to see that you had that ability or that, that interest because you got to that point first where you’re like, I never thought this was possible. What’s next. And that to me is like one of the most fulfilling things as a coach where it’s beyond just.

[00:48:20] You hit a PB in the gym, it’s more so like, how has your life grown and developed in your time with me? And does it, it should end up in a better position from where we start and to touch back on your point there about like goal setting. So one of the things we do, because that exact concept was something that I truly believe that if I can get you big skin shredded and you have veins coming out everywhere, and it is like, there is not an ounce of fat left in your body, but you’re broke, your relationship’s over, you lost your job,

[00:48:45] Dr Mike T Nelson: your

[00:48:46] Ben Mayfield-Smith: health is fuckeT

[00:48:47] I have failed as a coach. That’s not coaching. That’s just I know how to get you shredded at the cost of everything else. Looks

[00:48:53] Dr Mike T Nelson: good on Instagram though, bro. Yeah, it

[00:48:54] Ben Mayfield-Smith: looks great on Instagram. It looks fantastic. I’m the coach who gets you peeled and ruins your life. Sign me up. So to us, one of the big things is I want to have people at least set a destination five years into the future.

[00:49:07] What does your best five years look like from your comprehension right now? Where do you want to be? What is something you think is almost impossible in the next 12 months, but it’s something that you really want. So what we tend to find is once people actually narrow down and focus on an objective, it tends to improve the, it shortens the time horizon it takes to achieve it because now they’re focuseT

[00:49:23] realistically, they were participating in it, but not really giving it everything. Once it’s on paper, it’s narrowed down. It’s Oh, that five year goal was, two years. So we’re constantly having to reassess. But alongside that, we have them do it for their physical training goals or performance goals.

[00:49:38] So meaning whether they’re an athlete, a bodybuilder, a powerlifter, fighter pilots, the variety of people we work with. That training performance goal, whether that is, that’s the five year goal, but then we also have you do it for your life. So your personal life and you have you do it for your career or business.

[00:49:52] I work with a lot of coaches. I work with a lot of people that are athletes themselves. And so they don’t have their own goals. But alongside that, I want to know what you’re doing in those three areas, because like I said if I get you to performance goal X, but your life and your personal life and relationships and business came to the expense, that’s not a fair trade off.

[00:50:09] That’s not, I’m all in, I’m ready to kill for it, bro. That’s you’ve ruined your life. It was a plastic trophy. And the fact that no one cares about a niche sport, realistically, no one gives a shit and you’re trying to act tough because you ruined everything and threw all your relationships and friendships.

[00:50:23] That’s a failure on my behalf as a coach. So to have this idea of, even if we’re working on the physique goal and things are going perfectly, how can I help you achieve these other areas of your life? Because what will actually happen is if they’re raising it up, a rising tide lifts all boats, right? So if we’re improving your physique in the right way.

[00:50:42] The chances are that for that physique to really get to that level, your life has to be in a good place. Your career has to be in a good place financially, physically, emotionally. So it’s in my best interest to make sure that we’re working towards those things collectively in the right direction.

[00:50:54] So to have those goals on paper, you’re now looking at this going, what are these three things I want to nail? And then now we’re just moving your life towards those objective markets. How do you not get better as a person and an athlete if everything is improving?

[00:51:08] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And they all feed back into each other.

[00:51:11] Right? And I’ve made this mistake before of taking on clients who, eh, maybe financially they had enough to pay me, but it was not. Amazing. Their stress was off the chart and they’re like, yeah, I want to do a physique competition in 24 weeks. And early on in my career, idiot me goes, sure I can help you.

[00:51:36] And I’m like, Oh, it never ended well, and you look back at it and you’re like, Oh, that’s on me. Like I should have realized that. And so now, ironically, like you were saying, it’s a, Conversation of trying to talk them out of it or change their goal. It’s okay, here’s the deal. Here’s an, hindsight’s always 20, 20.

[00:51:55] Let’s try to get you back to maintenance. Let’s try to resolve some of your stress. Let’s try to get you back in a good position. Then we’ll have another conversation about what you want to do. If you want to do that and cool, I can help you. If you are hell bent on just finding a coach to, burn your ass to the ground for 24 weeks.

[00:52:11] Then that’s not me. Yeah, but that takes time to to have the one, I think the maturity and even the experience to realize that Oh, okay. Yeah. I, and the only way I know that is ’cause, well, I did it before and screwed people up and screwed myself up in the process. .

[00:52:26] Ben Mayfield-Smith: But to go back to our original point, like that’s a sign of good coaching, right?

[00:52:30] That should be a sign of good coaching. We have that, that we have the information, the data from hindsight, we should be implementeT one of the biggest things that I think like coaches should really take away from the conversation also is speed of implementation is directly proportional to success.

[00:52:44] Dr Mike T Nelson: If

[00:52:45] Ben Mayfield-Smith: you’re able to implement these things and you’ve learned quickly, that means like I’ve had clients where I noticed some data trends in my female athletes, but I wasn’t paying attention to some other athletes. And I was like, Oh, before I start prep with this girl, because I found it in prep with her, I’m going to implement that right now with her.

[00:53:00] And, client X and client Y and that changeT they’re like, why are we doing this? Am I doing something wrong? I was like, no, I was doing something wrong. I should have been looking for this before we start. And so now I want to know what that looks like before we get into prep. And so that speed of implementation makes a huge difference in your coaching acumen and your coaching experience, but also your success as a coach.

[00:53:19] So you’re going to get that information now and go, I was actually stuffing up here. I’m competent and able enough as a person to admit where I was wrong, made a mistake or could have been better. I’m not going to make that mistake again. I’m going to take ownership of that. And I’m going to put that in my process like you’ve just described there and we spoke about this in America is I’m building out a psychological screening tool for comp prep athletes because I don’t believe most people should be on stage.

[00:53:42] It’s contrary to hearing that as most people think I’m a prep coach, I’m a physique coach. That’s a large part of what I do. I actually believe we should be screening more clients to not be on stage because they’re so, they’re just not ready. And it’s become such a pop trend, an Instagram trend, a social trend, to get the glitz and glamour and be up there, that’s fine.

[00:54:01] But a large part of the process, people forget, is it is still a competitive sport. Yes, it’s pageantry. Yes, it’s like you’re just up there to look good, blah, blah, blah. But there is still a competitive edge To the event, and a lot of people aren’t athletically driven. So, to me, we need to be screening like any other athlete.

[00:54:17] Are you mentally prepared? Is your life prepared for this endeavor you’re about to engage in? If not, we’re having that tough conversation. My girl who just got her pro card in Season 8 here in Australia, a natural athlete, phenomenal placing in her first show, first season got her pro card, and straight after that won the pro show, she was national champion.

[00:54:36] So fantastic. I was mind blown that it happened six months prior to that. She was actually supposed to compete, but I said, no, we stopped and pivoted her season because mentally she wasn’t in a position where we believe is the best interest in health to get on stage. And I had to have the balls as a coach to say, Hey, you can choose to go with someone else.

[00:54:53] Someone else will get you on stage right now. I’m willing to lose money because I won’t, you’ll leave me. But I’m willing to lose that money for your health first to say, we’re not ready. Let’s do this later. A lot of emotional resentment up front, like a confrontation because that is a hard conversation to hear and have as an athlete and a coach, but because of that ability to have that conversation, she didn’t want to pro card and want to pro show straight away.

[00:55:14] Like these are the conversations that we had to have and learn from and be aware of that makes a big difference in the sport, in any client’s life. It’s always going to be easy, confrontational conversations. It’s always going to be like, we’re best part of the thing now. Our job as a coach is to get the best out of our client and the best interest of the client.

[00:55:33] She was not ready to give her best and I had to be aware of it to give that conversation. From that, rather than having those awkward conversations all the time to what’s prep starting, I was like, we can build a screen tool here to assess these people and make sure that they actually have the fundamental traits and skills and abilities that a good bodybuilding season has.

[00:55:50] And then that way, when someone comes to you, they’re starting to pay, I want to be a bodybuilder. All right. Here’s this test first. Let’s screen for this. Are you ready to start prep this year? Is this something we’re working on for 12 months? Oh, yeah. We’re probably gonna have to take some time. Look, I’m gonna be honest with you.

[00:56:03] This is going to take time. If we prep right now, you’ll throw your life away. Do you want to do that? No, I want to actually do pretty well. All right, let’s build these things first. There’s a few areas here specifically I want you to work on. We’re going to work on them together. We’ll reassess in six months, make sure it’s in a good position, and then we assess your physique and blah, blah, blah.

[00:56:19] So again, we’re taking that to go back to the initial conversation, we’re taking those qualitatives, pairing it with the quantitatives, and making it tangible information where we can go, as a coach, am I best serving you in your best interest, or am I just trying to take your mind? Because there’s a huge difference between just signing someone up and taking the cash and actually impacting their life where you’re making them better people.

[00:56:38] Because we have the power as coaches to make someone better or worse.

[00:56:43] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, my running joke with some people is okay, it doesn’t take any skill to take someone on say as a physique athlete and Just throw tons of volume and stupid drop sets at him for no apparent reason and put them on poverty macros like this That doesn’t take any skill and then when you object to that, they just argue calories in calories out, bro It’s okay like on one level is it does it work?

[00:57:12] Yes, but man like what is the cost? Associated with it and at least from what I’ve seen in the US I think we’re actually evolving past that and I don’t see as many just flat out abysmal prep coaches like I did 10 years ago.

[00:57:31] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I think. One of the interesting parts about America, because you guys are so big, if we plot it on, normal distribution, the level of better coaching is increasing.

[00:57:45] But with that, as we know, positive and negative standard deviations, you also have, I think, the better coaching is increasing. And the amount of better coaches out there is increasing, but then at the same time, that extremity of bad coaching is still, it’s still there, but I think

[00:58:03] Dr Mike T Nelson: because

[00:58:04] Ben Mayfield-Smith: we exist in such good spaces, you probably don’t see it as often, but when you hear some of the horror stories of the things going on, like you said, people still just bottoming out calories.

[00:58:13] Yeah, I can up training volume, 100, 140, 200 sets a week of just absolute dribble. And it’s yeah, you’ve got a result, the consequence of this was far outweighing the rewarT and it’s like now, it almost comes to a lot of a lot of time, but some of the time I work as a coach is really, when I get someone new.

[00:58:33] It’s probably undoing some of the stuff they’ve learned or had been exposed to or known from previous coaching. Now I’ve had girls start with me where previous prep coaches hadn’t even tracked their menstrual cycle and they’re already showing predisposition, body image issues, scale tracking issues, and the coach hadn’t identified that to just track them at their menstrual cycle to help them understand it.

[00:58:52] It got to a point where we streamline the data so often that they were basically hitting the same. Every fourth week was basically one to 1. 5 kilos in fluid weight. Then we come up and then by the next week, we can go into that luteal flower, that flicker phase. Well, I’m done. Everything’s gooT and it’s okay, cool.

[00:59:07] But if we didn’t have that data and then awareness, not really coaching properly tracking and asking us those questions, you’d be going through the same body image issues every fourth week. Like I’m bloated mess. I hate myself. I’m fat. Can we drop calories? And then it’s like, but it’s a lot easier to have that conversation when I’m now teaching you to track it and understand why we’re tracking it and what’s happening.

[00:59:26] And we use that data. Now we start to get some trends and information, super easy to bring your awareness to. But again, it’s there’s still that level of coaching that exists where I’m just going to bottom out your food and increase your volume. And then call that coaching. Again, you got lean, but that’s just a natural by product of biochemistry and physiology.

[00:59:43] That’s not coaching. That was just inevitably bound to occur from simply increased output, decreased input.

[00:59:50] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, and Also, knowing when to not, I don’t want to say give in, but not to always agree with the client, right? So it’s that example, right? It’s Oh, 1. 4 kgs this week, it’s easier and less confrontational, for the coach to be like, Oh, let’s just drop your calories versus one.

[01:00:13] Let’s try to figure out what’s going on too. It’s only been that way for three days now I’m going to wait for another week or two weeks or whatever your time period is, which is a whole different discussion and see, is this actually a trend or not? Right. And I think. I know for myself early on, I was more afraid of losing clients by not making changes as often I was guilty of taking programs that worked really well and the person was on it for eight weeks and then totally redo their program because I was afraid that if they didn’t see many changes, they were going to leave.

[01:00:45] And now I’m just like, Hey man, like we’re going to ride this horse until it doesn’t work anymore. And we’re going to make changes and tweaks and we’re going to be doing things along the way. But man, if it’s working. And you’re doing it and you’re cool with it. Why would I change it? You know what I mean?

[01:01:00] But, yeah.

[01:01:03] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Yeah that I pump my clients with the adage of being broke don’t fix it. If there is nothing showing wrong, why would we make adjustments? If it’s, I use myself as an example for clients when they get that way I would argue I’m probably advancing towards a Intermediate to advanced athlete age.

[01:01:18] Like I’ve got enough experience in that and where I’m like, it’s getting more awareness. My body’s more aware. I’m more in tune with it. I know what’s going to happen. Yada, yada, the train happens that I ran a post conc block. And my first growth phase outcome for 32 weeks, the only variable that changed was an increase in set totals.

[01:01:35] And I think some exercise order, once I noticed some niggles that were like, Hey, when this is nodding, it’s all, but when it’s not, it’s a little bit better. The overall template of the program, everything else remained exactly the same for 32 weeks. If I’m getting to the point of being an advanced athlete and I can run that for 32 weeks, I Chances are you can probably run your program, your dieting phase, your nutrition, your lifestyle factors for a bit more than four weeks.

[01:01:58] I think it’s yeah, like you said, it’s, it’s super easy at the start. I think we’ve all probably been guilty of where it’s I need to feel like I’m giving you value, but the value is you’re inside a system to get your results. And you’ve already seen outside of our system that you weren’t getting the results.

[01:02:11] So realistically, you’re paying for the fact that you’re going to get that result. And that’s what our system is all about is I am not married to a process. I’m married to that. I want to get your results client. If that process requires change because something’s not working, we just assess the inputs and the variables and see what’s producing the outputs.

[01:02:29] And if it’s not working, well, then we mitigate with modifier. Unfortunately, I think, like you said, there’s some coaches out there that will just get scared of losing the client, although it. Not even scared of losing clients. I’ve seen coaches here in Australia, they’ll change the entire program every four weeks.

[01:02:44] And I’ve had that debate so often where if we look at clients and we look at like their actual train ability to train knowledge, training experience week four, they’ve probably started to master the layout of the program.

[01:02:57] Dr Mike T Nelson: And

[01:02:57] Ben Mayfield-Smith: then all of a sudden you’re like, you know what, instead of de loading or just letting it ride change.

[01:03:02] And now they’re like, Oh, where’s this new exercise? Where’s this new machine? Where’s this? That’s week one. Now it’s let’s drive some intensity. That’s week two. Oh, now I’ve got this pretty well laid out. That’s week three. Oh, week four. We’re changing it. It’s like, what for? What are we doing where it’s yes, there is being a coach and having the X and O’s, but you’re so tied up into thinking that X and O’s are the things that it’s the, that’s the input driving the output.

[01:03:24] Let’s go back to that early conversation. How about we assess those intangible things? We start to assess the qualitative factors and put some quantitative numbers to it and really start to see how we can improve those things. Can we get the client sleeping better? Get some more sunlight? Do steps outside?

[01:03:38] Can they get more sleep in total? Can they get better quality sleep? What’s their entire sleep hygiene look like? One of the best, piece of advice people get is the best morning routine is the night before. Because that’s going to dictate how well you start your day. But we get so caught up in The fancy three hour morning Joe Rogan routine that you have to have with Andrew Hoopman set up and it’s got to be like a four hour sauna and hot plunge, cold plunge and blah, blah, blah.

[01:04:03] Can we just get you sleeping better than before, less alcohol, less caffeine, less stimulants, less visual stimulus, less taking, less less information before we go to bed, journal a little bit. Make sure you set up with a nice environment. Aircon’s on, mattress is comfortable, blanket, sheets, pillows, etc.

[01:04:18] Okay, now we’ve got that in check. What’s the next thing we can assess? All the while, this whole training program is still running at the same pace. We’re still doing the same program, modifying maybe one or two sets a week, and maybe a varied exercise because it just was maxed out or something like that, but that is where we grow the client.

[01:04:35] The program is barely responsible for making that change. It’s, it is responsible. Obviously, we all know that essential to growing tissue, but to maximize the output of that program, there is a lot of input that comes from those external factors outside the gym. We have to control or improve, but then get the most out of that programming face.

[01:04:54] So a lot of coaching realistically, probably objectively measured is less about how we modify. The program until we have a very elite athlete and more about how we manage those lifestyle factors and those intangibles that contribute to how good that program is going to run. If we sleep like shit, we eat like shit and we aren’t feeling properly, the training is going to be crap.

[01:05:14] So me modifying the program because you feel crap in the gym has less to do with the program and more to do with what’s going on outside of it. When you get your five hours of sleep, you’re not drinking water, your proteins at half a gram per kilogram. And your carbohydrate level is. I have that instead of cars because I feel like, why don’t you train like shit?

[01:05:33] So me making variable changes on your program makes no sense when the program isn’t the reason you feel baT it’s everything else around it. And I think, that just comes back to where training coaching experience becomes such a great thing. You have to go through the trenches, obviously, in order to get on the other side of hell, you first have to go through it.

[01:05:53] We all understand that, the fast, which is again, where I think mentors are so important, 41 different chats here wrapped into one, but the idea of having mentors is so important because we can short distance that gap from A to B as a new coach and try and learn these things faster, as opposed to how we had to do it, where it was like basically just going through hell and getting things wrong and making all the changes and figuring it out as we recognize that we suckeT

[01:06:15] we can, turn to people now in online spaces where it’s, you get a bit more mentorship and guidance and help. Go aheaT yeah, I think that’s a huge factor for coaches to understand is those metrics play such important role that we need to be like changing a program every four weeks when the client hasn’t got any of those things as a baseline is almost redundant.

[01:06:37] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah. And that’s a great point. Like I’m, it took me a while to get to this point, but I am now, you can ask any of my clients neurotic about output. What was your output in the gym? Was your output for your cardio? Not again, this doesn’t mean that everything is max effort or anything like that, but If you were in zone two, were you really in zone two?

[01:06:53] Like how long did you do? What was your average heart rate? Because to me, that is the stimulus that’s driving the change. But like you mentioned, that’s informing me on everything else in that process. And then if I also have an HRV measurements and I’ve got a marker of cost, what cost did you pay to achieve that performance?

[01:07:14] And if the cost is going up and the performance is there, Great. That’s cool. But we can only ride that wave so long unless that cost is coming down. So I may, preemptively pull things down or the reverse. Like the cost looks like your HRV is, showing your stress, but your output is dog shit.

[01:07:34] Now I know for sure your training is off because your nutrition is off or your stress or your sleep. So let’s. Yes, we may change your training because we don’t want to dig a bigger hole that we can’t recover from, but then you have to back up and go, okay, is this nutrition related? What is the thing that’s driving that?

[01:07:52] And so even for my own training, like if I can hit most of my volume, then I know one, I’m probably not traveling to my nutrition is probably gooT do you know, stress is reasonable and sleep is probably better. And I can tell all of that just by looking, not even at HRV, but just looking at my output for training over that week, I was able to do a couple more sets here.

[01:08:11] Oh, I was able to add a little bit more weight. It’s, all relatively minor things, but like the amount of. Planned things that I didn’t skip or just run out of time or energy or performance to do Yeah, and that’s like early on I was just Way too wrapped up into the, they’re completely different things.

[01:08:34] And so one of the things I tried to teach in the FizzFlex cert and the Flex diet cert is, like a concept I call just match macros. If you’re going to go to a training session, you’re going to burn a shit ton of, glycogen. Shocker. Maybe you should have some more carbohydrates in your diet to support these things, but even concepts like that, I’m like, man, I wish someone would have told me that 15 years ago, it’s just the simple things that, that.

[01:08:57] Drive what’s trying to create the output and the change.

[01:09:02] Ben Mayfield-Smith: I think the important part here is coach, this is where like I call the, the five minutes of work as an online coach is a lot of bullshit. It’s almost more work as an online coach, if you give a shit,

[01:09:12] Dr Mike T Nelson: because

[01:09:13] Ben Mayfield-Smith: we aren’t there in person to see everything play out.

[01:09:16] We’re getting second feedback and then, and we, as we know, there is a multitude of psychological data on reflection and recollection from people they suck at.

[01:09:24] Dr Mike T Nelson: Which

[01:09:25] Ben Mayfield-Smith: is

[01:09:25] Dr Mike T Nelson: horrible. How many veggies do you eat? Oh, it was amazing. Now you suckeT

[01:09:29] Ben Mayfield-Smith: This is why a good lawyer can actually dismiss some client sorry witness testimonies.

[01:09:35] Oh yeah, it’s

[01:09:35] Dr Mike T Nelson: horrible.

[01:09:36] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Recollection in court is horrible. Under pressure, under, prejudice the ability to recall information is proven to be horrible. People they’ll run these tests where they show basically Hey, what was, there was a speed sign here. What was the number on it?

[01:09:50] Oh, 45. It was 60. The fact there’s a speed sign in that environment wasn’t there. They added it to the photo to test you.

[01:09:56] Dr Mike T Nelson: But

[01:09:56] Ben Mayfield-Smith: That test is failed by a lot of people, marginally above average, almost, I believe. And so we can see even in a legal setting, recollection and reflection is horrible. So the ability as an online coach to ask the right questions and get the right responses is paramount to your client’s success.

[01:10:12] Bye bye. And your ability to deliver good coaching. And this is where to me, it’s understanding the Each person probably has different needs of information, but having a baseline of data that you’re looking for, and essentially what happens, and I say it’s For us, as probably more neurotic number nerds, it becomes the matrix.

[01:10:29] When you look Oh, yeah. When you, if you’re someone who isn’t one of the digital readers in the matrix, you just see numbers and the green screen and the numbers are coming down to those guys that are dialed in. They’re seeing pictures. It’s a story. There’s a movie playing basically as they watch that screen, the information is telling them what’s going on for us as coaches.

[01:10:47] It’s very similar. It’s almost the same way. We’re seeing your life play out week to week by the data that you give us. And we can start to see those implications. So, Yeah, as you said, if you’re, if your output is dropped, if I’ve got clients that are getting injured too frequently, or I’ve got clients that aren’t, their training volume isn’t high, if I’ve got clients that are feeling sore than usual, if I’ve got clients that are approaching deload faster than they should be, either the metrics we’re looking for are off, meaning like stress is too high, sleep is too low, nutrition’s off relationship issues are probably flaring up or the training volume is too high.

[01:11:18] We’re simply at that point of MRV where I need to bring that volume back down or we actually do schedule that deloaT but if it’s so soon, it’s like, Hey, three weeks in your program, you shouldn’t be feeling this sore. Let’s assess what’s happening here. Have a phone call, catch up, or just give me more information because something’s askew.

[01:11:32] It should be more closer to the six to eight week mark where we see this level of response and recoverability. So the simple act of that information being on the screen I can start to figure out like your life. There is some holes here in the story. There’s some holes here in the picture that I’m missing pieces.

[01:11:48] We need to figure out because the output isn’t matching the input and we need it to. So, these questions and the data, at least it gives us the ability to look at the overall picture more effectively and from that make informed decisions. And as anyone, any good coach will know it is a best guesstimation at most for us, we’re using data information to make the best educated decision possible. It’s not perfect, it’s not a nailed science, it makes sense, but everyone is so individually different. But with the more information you give us and the correct information you give us, It makes making those decisions easier and more accurate, more effective, more efficient.

[01:12:28] And usually with that, we can get some better outcomes. So the online space, I think the idea that you could even remotely be a good online coach with a five minute lifestyle, like I can sip pina coladas and coffee is give a shit about your clients. There is not a chance in hell that you are going to get away with, Taking shirtless selfies and, talking about your Lambo and doing less actual client work.

[01:12:47] Because the good coach is really looking at information like, how do I improve my client? This is going to take some work. This is beyond just me adding a new program or a preset template. Yeah, you can add that program, but. To maximize the return of that program, what can I do? What can my clients do different?

[01:13:04] It’s you make a meal. Yeah, you can have chicken and potato, but yeah, you’re going to get chicken and potato. But can I make that chicken and potato better? I can add some seasoning, I can add some condiments, I can add some different vegetables. I can grill it or I can butter it, I can batter it, whatever.

[01:13:18] There’s so many different ways to get a better outcome than just simply, here’s the basics. Here’s your program. I’m going to go have a coffee on the beach and take photos for Instagram. That to me is as we said, it’s a load of shit. I just don’t see it being possible that any good coach can do that effectively and genuinely deliver a service.

[01:13:33] You’re going to make clients happy. It’s going to impact clients in a positive manner and have a genuine outcome. You’ll probably, you’ll churn and burn a lot, I’m sure. But, you might have a huge, I see people brag about I’ve served 5, 000 clients. If we do that math, over two years, you’ve served 5, 000 clients.

[01:13:49] You’ve got a pretty horrible retention model. Yeah. Anyone that knows anything knows that retention is the best way of making money. If you’re really trying to succeed as a coach, you would keep the clients you have and get a few more as opposed to trying to find new clients. So I just, yeah, to me, it’s a load of crap that you can have that lifestyle as a coach if you give a shit because I work borderline seven days a week and go to uni and it’s not a small feat.

[01:14:18] Dr Mike T Nelson: Yeah, it, and a lot of the work you do isn’t necessarily even an inclined interactions. It’s, looking at their data, I use true coach and we’ve got coach catalyst for some other programs, like the flex diet cert, and I’ll spy on clients during the week. I may not even comment for four or five days cause I don’t want to influence them too early, but I’ll have little predictions of, where they’re going.

[01:14:42] Okay. Just plugging my computer in here what they’re doing or even assessments when you start, I have sometimes for advanced athletes, a pretty long assessment that may take them like a whole week to actually finish. But looking at it to me is in a weird geeky way. That’s fun because that’s like the ultimate problem solving of, okay, I got this data.

[01:15:04] So they’re, 20 minute row is this, that’s telling me the aerobic capacity, but their 500 meter was only in this, their three minute lactate was this. And then we’ve got their. Hrv each morning was that and their move with their Excel test was like 30 seconds but the Aura says their respiratory rate is like 17 and their 2k tells me their vo2 max and all this data like comes down to something that’s at the end rather simple hey go to the gym do this I want you to do this type of breath work and then let’s have you eat more protein, right?

[01:15:34] Yeah, that’s like what coaching is supposed to be. Like you’re taking all the complex things. You’re trying to understand the physiology, the background, what affects this, how this affects that. But the little phrase I like is, physiology is complicated, but your actions are relatively simple. So the coach is going to boil all that stuff down to, okay, here’s your training thing, and once you’re done training, and I want you to do a long exhale to down regulate for five minutes.

[01:15:59] Before you go to bed, do this type of breath work, do this. It’s the things to do. And then rather simple, which is why they hired a coach to begin with.

[01:16:08] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Exactly. And I think that’s such an important fact that piece of information is our job is to convey simplicity to the client and mitigate the amount of variables.

[01:16:18] Like how many clients do you get where they’re so used to having a thousand different things trying to their face. And it’s just like all this information coming out, watch this documentary and this YouTube guy said this, these influencers on Instagram said this. And part of our job is to almost protect them from that bullshit and kind of minimize the intake that they’re getting.

[01:16:35] Hey, you come to me. These are the things like, don’t even worry about these things. That’s not even contributing factor right now. These factors that we’re going to focus because X, Y, Z reasons. Yes, I can teach like a big push in Australia, not big push in Australia, but to argue that you need to know the prep cycle to understand how to coach people effectively.

[01:16:52] Blah, blah, blah. I’m like, sure. Understanding how pyruvate works and where it COA works and how those things can interact anT beta oxidation is important, but the majority of the fact is how do I know that stuff and get my client a result? They don’t need to know stuff. They don’t need to know what like the background of that information is or how I de chain triglycerides and have them break up into free fatty acids.

[01:17:14] I don’t need to know. They need to know calorie deficit, energy in energy out, but also what makes up the quality of that fooT how do I get them to that point anyway, tracking, blah, blah, blah. But things that actually impact them that are a need to know basis, I’m trying to shield them from the excessive information because paralysis by analysis is a very common thing.

[01:17:31] And having excessive information thrown at you to try and figure out part of the reason why people come to us as coaches, because they’ve been so overwhelmed with bullshit that hasn’t workeT I tried keto for three months, and I did low carb for six months, and I did this weird six week challenge that I ended up at a party, and we all binged and did cocaine, and I ate a shit ton of food, and, blew a bunch of rails, and now all of a sudden I’m back to eating crappy food again.

[01:17:54] The fact is They’ve tried everything. Well, most of them have probably tried most of these things. Jenny Craig, point scoring, whatever. And they’re so overwhelmed with what’s not working, the information to be tolT there’s TikTok trends going on. And this guy said this and our job becomes to simplify the shared information.

[01:18:12] Like, how do I get the right data from you? But instead of freaking you out being like, Oh, you’re not going to sit there and be like, your two kilometers said this, and your 500 meter road said this, your HIV is here. Oh, but your blood pressure shoots up here during the night. Well, this happeneT

[01:18:25] you’re not giving them that response. You’re sitting there going, here’s all of these inputs. I need to give you one output. And that is one variable we’re going to change. Any good scientific researcher, any good researcher understands is We’re trying to narrow down what the independent and the dependent variable are with one factor, right?

[01:18:42] Like we’re trying to look at what is one independent variable is going to impact the dependent variable and is going to lead to a change so we can have an understanding of correlation causation. Now, I’m not going to say that this is directly going to be the solving of all your problems, but let’s start with this one thing and see how many factors or metrics get impacteT

[01:18:57] oh, this actually had a significant response on four or five of these metrics. Cool. We’re on the right track. Now what happens if we add another input? And we start to just build on that, like we’re using single variables to make a change, see what happens, assess that and make a different one. But that’s our job as a coach is to simplify the shit out of all that extensive, comprehensive, overwhelming information you go, let’s just try this.

[01:19:20] You’ve given me your data, you’ve given me your feedback, you’ve done your onboarding, you’ve done your checking, you’ve done your assessments, let’s try this single thing. And, oh, that’s had a huge change. Oh, that did nothing. Cool. We at least know now that did nothing. So that’s not the fact. But either way, right, we’re getting that simplicity to have them understand, reduce the stress, the anxiety, all the freaking out of social media, the over availability of information.

[01:19:41] Well, we’re done. We can just try this one thing. See what happens. Didn’t work. Cool. Try the next one. Try the next one. That whole coaching process really is trial and error and figuring out a client. And then we’re done. Well, we’re not done, but it’s trial and error to figure them out until eventually we get to a point where we understand that client so well that things are just simple.

[01:20:00] Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. Love it. Thank you so much for all the amazing information and where can people find out more? I know you’ve got coaching, you’ve got different programs, you obviously work with clients.

[01:20:11] Like where’s the best resources they can learn more about you?

[01:20:15] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Best resource from us, probably go my link tree on Instagram on either the matter athletic or account, or Ben Mayfield Smithco. You can find our website, which is matter athletica do com. There’s a whole list of free lectures and education on the Matter institute, which is just basically every time I do a presentation or a summit, I re-record the thing and present it for free.

[01:20:33] You can find our YouTube channel and our podcasts which is Matter, athletic Art, or the Matter Mentality Podcast. I, as we try to do a lot of information and giveaways and just putting things out. So you can find a whole bunch of stuff before you even pay me a dollar which is what we like.

[01:20:48] I would prefer you have watched most of the things or done most of the things before you try to pay me money. And then we have mentoring spaces, coaching spaces Different, obviously systems for prep athletes and non prep athletes. So it’s all on the website when you’re ready. Otherwise just literally take all the free information.

[01:21:02] I hate that. I tell people to take it and Oh, what’s the caption? There’s just,

[01:21:05] Dr Mike T Nelson: yeah,

[01:21:06] Ben Mayfield-Smith: take the free stuff, use the free stuff. Come back to me if you have a question. So that’s where you find it.

[01:21:11] Dr Mike T Nelson: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you sharing this. This was awesome. And Yeah. Hope to see you again in person.

[01:21:17] Maybe we’ll venture on a very long flight over to your island at some point again, and maybe you’ll be back over here.

[01:21:26] Ben Mayfield-Smith: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

[01:21:27] Dr Mike T Nelson: Cool. Thank you.

[01:21:30] [01:21:31] Dr Mike T Nelson: Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Huge thanks to Ben for coming on the podcast and sharing all of his wonderful knowledge. Always wonderful to chat with him now that he is back home after a very long flight. Make sure to check out his site, he’s got tons of great information, especially on the YouTube channel, just a massive amount of information there.

[01:21:55] He also has some stuff on Instagram, I’ll put a link to his website there. Really great information there. Make sure to give him a follow, subscribe to all of his stuff on YouTube. A huge thanks to him for coming on the podcast. If you want the answer to the flex for question that I asked him is if you were a new coach And all the things you’ve learned over the years for schooling and experience If you’re like man, I wish someone would have sat me down and told me these four things What would they be?

[01:22:30] So you can get Ben’s exclusive answer to that go over to Mike T Nelson comm forward slash flex for FLEX the number four That will also subscribe you to the daily fitness insider newsletter, which is completely free. So you get both of those There and if you’re already on the newsletter, then you will get the flex for this one delivered directly to Your inbox the huge thanks to Ben huge.

[01:22:56] Thanks to Tecton if you’re looking for an exogenous ketone They can put you in a state of ketosis with usually in about 10 to 20 minutes without having to do a ketogenic diet, check them out. Lately, like I said, I’ve been using them a lot kiteboarding, which has been great. And also sometimes if I have to do more cognitive work later at night where I want something that will help, but you don’t really want to have more caffeine or more stimulants because that’s really gonna mess up your sleep.

[01:23:25] So check them out there. Use the code Dr. Mike. I am a scientific advisor to them. And an ambassador. So full disclosure on that. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Really appreciate it. If you could give us the and subscribe and write a review, all that great stuff that helps us with the old algorithm goes a long way to help better distribution of the show.

[01:23:52] Really appreciate it. Thank you so much. We’ll talk to all of you next week.

[01:23:57] Well, they say all good things come to an end. What’s that got to do with this show?

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